On not understanding religion | 82 comments (82 topical, editorial, 0 hidden)

Re: On not understanding religion (4.00 / 2)

Yes, rationality itself isn't enough, it doesn't inspire. What we need is a charismatic leader with a simple, easily communicated message of social improvement, something like a modernised version of this should do the trick, one people want to believe in without necessarily having to understand the implications; we need a Barack Obama for the mind.

Course, we've had demgoguic leaders before, Lenin, Stalin, Hitler & Mao seemed able to whip up an a-religious frenzy. Sadly for us, not to much different result from the voodoo muck-spreaders.

Sigh.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Sun Dec 30th, 2007 at 02:59:53 PM EST

Re: On not understanding religion (4.00 / 4)

Helen:

Yes, rationality itself isn't enough, it doesn't inspire.

Science also has an inspiring narrative, propagated in popular writings about the history of science, which is a sort of creation myth with prophets and saints and martyrs and all that. Nobody actually tells young people what the actual day to day practice of science is like, because it would be too discouraging :-)

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Dec 30th, 2007 at 03:34:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: On not understanding religion (none / 1)

You're kidding.

I'll trade the scientific method any day for the trivial and utterly boring dogmatic narratives of the religious. Spreading scribbled pages all over the room as you purportedly do beats kneepad and carpet mumbling.

But don't get me wrong that the two can be remotely compared. Science and religion are not bedfellows. To compare the two only legitimizes religion as a false alternative. Conversely, it's not science's pretence to offer some sort of ultimate truth or reality. Leave that sort of hubris to the Believers.

by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Sun Dec 30th, 2007 at 05:49:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: On not understanding religion (none / 1)

No, I'm not kidding.

I'm talking about the fact that scientists form a community (or several) and that any community has its myths: stories they tell themselves about the community and that hold the community together.

In many ways the way the history of science is presented to young people as a recruiting tool reminds me of the way that young children only hear about the biblical stories that sound like harmless fairy tales or adventure stories. The grisly details of sexual depravity, cruelty and the vengeful and capricious God of the Old Testament, or the deeply mysoginous writings of Paul or the cultish protection racket that was the early Church are not mentioned and are only discovered later in life, when the person is vested in the community.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Dec 31st, 2007 at 06:00:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: On not understanding religion (none / 0)

In many ways the way the history of science is presented to young people as a recruiting tool reminds me of the way that young children only hear about the biblical stories that sound like harmless fairy tales or adventure stories. The grisly details of sexual depravity, cruelty and the vengeful and capricious God of the Old Testament, or the deeply mysoginous writings of Paul or the cultish protection racket that was the early Church are not mentioned and are only discovered later in life, when the person is vested in the community.

Please tell more about those grisly details of science :-)

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Mon Dec 31st, 2007 at 07:41:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: On not understanding religion (4.00 / 3)

I don't know about grisly but it can be very boring.

I've spent months on end in the lab doing mind-numbing repetitive experiments just to create one graph. But when it works, and it all slots together in my head and I can see what is in front of me, it's amazing. Ironically, it can take a lot of faith to keep going in the hope that those moments will materialise.

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Mon Dec 31st, 2007 at 08:10:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: On not understanding religion (4.00 / 2)

The grisly parts have to do mostly with priority disputes, senior scientists stealing credit from junior scientist or even students, disputes over funding and hiring, power plays in departments, doctoring of data...

But if you want really grisly a biography of Newton would be a good read.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Dec 31st, 2007 at 08:16:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: On not understanding religion (4.00 / 3)

Very true, but power games and corruption of that kind occur everywhere.

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Mon Dec 31st, 2007 at 08:20:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: On not understanding religion (4.00 / 2)

I prefer Lakatos' account of Newton's discoveries, what he called the heuristics of scientific investigation. My comment may not have conveyed the field of my argument which refers only to your comment:

Nobody actually tells young people what the actual day to day practice of science is like, because it would be too discouraging :-)

Which recalls Helen:

Yes, rationality itself isn't enough, it doesn't inspire.

I'm not discussing the backbiting and low blows that characterize all human activity, not just the sciences. Therefore I see no reason to single out this behaviour as pertinent to scientific endeavour.

So, to be more precise: Rationality and all that derives is far more inspiring. Rationality sets the necessary constraints to creativity. As for the day to day practice of science, the heuristics necessary to confront theory with facts, it's hard work, frustrating and exalting, but not boring.

by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Mon Dec 31st, 2007 at 08:56:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: On not understanding religion (4.00 / 2)

I agree with all you say but for the last 3 words. The day to day practice really can be very boring indeed.

When you have put together hundreds of chemical solutions to do the same experiment for each one with repeat readings for each, all having to be done manually, requiring no let up in concentration and taking from 8am through to 9pm without anything but short breaks and taking many weeks to complete - then come back and tell me the process isn't boring!

I far preferred working in a factory because I could do my tasks without thinking about them which left my brain free to wander to more interesting things.

I suppose that any chosen career will have it's dull periods though.

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Mon Dec 31st, 2007 at 09:05:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: On not understanding religion (4.00 / 2)

I get your point. Fortunately I'm at an age where I can delegate the grunt work in my profession if I feel the need. I however am very glad I went through that stage. It does build discipline and craft.

As I'm a chronic life-long daydreamer I still manage to think outside the task at hand despite necessary attention. Too much concentration is detrimental in my case. I'm prone to step out of my immediacy and monitor muscular tension or my movements as I work, or at times what is going on in my mind. A sort of silent meta-thinking that I greatly enjoy.

by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Mon Dec 31st, 2007 at 10:13:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: On not understanding religion (none / 1)

I enjoy that but when I let my mind wander I would lose count or get the concentration wrong which required starting over again and wasting a day's work.

It was good for discipline and hones attention to detail but, I much prefer day dreaming. Some of my best ideas have emerged from a wandering brain.

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Mon Dec 31st, 2007 at 10:22:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: On not understanding religion (4.00 / 4)

A wandering brain is far more creative. Focusing goes sterile but sort of leaves the problem to be solved lurking around for the wondering brain to tackle.

Nothing beats daydreaming!

by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Mon Dec 31st, 2007 at 12:25:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: On not understanding religion (none / 1)

If we could only get Edwards's thorough policies with Obama's ability to whip people up into a frenzy with all the cheesy hope stuff. It would be almost too good. We could finally put an end to psychotic Republican deification rituals before Congress pushes through the Ronald Reagan Memorial Solar System.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Mon Dec 31st, 2007 at 08:44:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

On not understanding religion | 82 comments (82 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

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