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This rant is so right on so many levels that I do nto know where to start...

Why oh why theya re not promoted, the structure for this stuff as Migerus says is pure bulls***.

Why this dichotomy.. why not big careers for them.. why not people doing physics and philosophy at the same time..

Philosophers which master physics and antrhopology and math should be rewarded with scholarships... to be sholars!!!

And we should have th media to publish and project those ideas...

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Mon Dec 31st, 2007 at 08:34:36 AM EST
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In France, until the 60s, you had to have a university level in Science before studying Philosophy. That explains why you have a generational effect: usually old philosophers have a solid scientific culture whereas the young ones are closer to literature studies.

By the way, there have been a good number of philosophers working in the field of Philosophy of Science. The best know are Thomas S. Kuhn and Karl Popper, but you have also Henri Bergson, Gaston Bachelard, Ludovico Geymonat, Paul Feyerabend, Imre Lakatos and more recently, Michel Foucault, Edgar Morin and Michel Serres (and probably many I don't know of...).

"Dieu se rit des hommes qui se plaignent des conséquences alors qu'ils en chérissent les causes" Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet

by Melanchthon on Mon Dec 31st, 2007 at 09:47:52 AM EST
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Sokal for kicks...
by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Mon Dec 31st, 2007 at 10:15:47 AM EST
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They all miss the knwoledge of story-telling and anthropology that Sagan and Asimov had.. they really made huge advacnes for the scientific community to become more open, for sure, they all have created a tendency for science to speak out... Kuhn specially.. he only introduce social since into science creation brilliantly... so i guess all the pushback  agains attacks on science and organization to explain out science has come thanks to this openess...

but we still need the Sagans and Asimovs... :)

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Mon Dec 31st, 2007 at 11:52:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It is all story-telling.

I think there's very little point trying to teach most people to do science, because many of them either can't do it, aren't interested, or both.

But story-telling is hugely influential. A narrative that resonates is a very powerful force for change.

This confuses hard-core scientific types, because narrative thinking is pre-rational. It doesn't make sense in rational terms.

But it does make sense in social terms - especially in terms of values, status, aims, and relationships. And if you want to reach the majority of the population, stories have to be pitched at that level using the kinds of concepts and narrative lines that make people feel a part of the story.

Unfortunately much of the population still seems to see rationality as a a slightly frightening skill which they don't entirely understand and which makes them feel uncomfortable.

They can offer opinions, but they won't be deeply thought out opinions, they'll often be quoted verbatim from 'authorities' (qv the media) and they'll have a pre-rational value basis.

But give them a good story and make them feel they're at least as important to it as you are, and they'll be with you instantly.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Mon Dec 31st, 2007 at 02:11:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Indeed it is "story telling" ie the "Narrative" from which everything flows.

Pirsig again, in "Zen etc"

Religion isn't invented by man. Men are invented by religion. Men invent responses to Quality, and among these responses is an understanding of what they themselves are. You know something and then the Quality stimulus hits and then you try to define the Quality stimulus, but to define it all you've got to work with is what you know.

So your definition is made up of what you know. It's an analogue to what you already know. It has to be. It can't be anything else. And the mythos grows this way. By analogies to what is known before.

and then this, from the pivotal moment in the book

All this is just an analogy.

Fantastic, Phædrus thinks, that he should have remembered that. It just demolishes the whole dialectical position. That may just be the whole show right there. Of course it's an analogy. Everything is an analogy. But the dialecticians don't know that.

...and one of the consequences - as we have explored here often enough - is that to change anything we have to change the narrative, and in doing so, in moving from Rhetoric to Reality, we reinvent religion...


"The future is already here -- it's just not very evenly distributed" William Gibson

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Tue Jan 1st, 2008 at 06:38:43 AM EST
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and it is universal.. not a single documented culture where it does not exist.

A pleasure


I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Tue Jan 1st, 2008 at 03:55:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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