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Having a very limited set of variables that counts, even when the people doing the jobs knows that it is bad for the over all public good. Hm, it reminds me of something...

Oh yes, that was how the eastern economies used to be described.

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by A swedish kind of death on Fri Mar 23rd, 2007 at 05:52:04 AM EST
Every economist, regardless of their ideology, is a central planner. That's what economic modelling is all about.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Mar 23rd, 2007 at 05:55:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Social illiteracy would also appear to be a prerequisite for macroeconomics as well.


And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg
by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Fri Mar 23rd, 2007 at 09:24:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Formal rationality triumphs again.....

Formal calculations, what can be measured in money or in kind, destroys substantive rationality, the societal values incapable of being measured in numerical terms.  Weber was right, it serves to dehumanizes those subject to it.

The fundamental distinction between "social market" economies and "liberal" economies is the degree to which they are socially embedded.  

So that we can speak of socially embedded economies on the continent in which the preservation of social relations and values antecedent to the values of the market are preserved, and socially disembedded economies of the North Atlantic and North America in which formal, economic, values are given precedence over substantive, social, values.

Economies are always socially embedded, and society as a living thing will eventually generate an autonomic response to defend against the errant economies.  Polanyi stated this most clearly, noting that the state and social order are antecedent to the development of that market.  Without the rule of law and the recognition of private property, the liberal economy can not exist. The state and normative, social values are antecedent and necessary to the continuation of the market.  As economies disembed from the society they serve to destroy it, undermining the institutions in society upon which their continuation depends.

Schumpeter recognized this in his work, Capitalism, Socialism, and Democracy, leading him to reluctantly acknowledge the need for socialism.  What Schumpeter called socialism was essentially a form of Keynesian economics, state interevention to stabilize the social disruptions created by the feral market.  The "cycle of creative destruction" is much like a workhorse, a powerful creature, but left untamed and uncontrolled, it may kill those who attempt to exploit it.  That this favorite line of neo-liberals worldwide came from a work advocating "socialism" is an irony lost on most of them.   Apparently reading comprehension is not required in the vast majority of economics programs.

Society is a living, breathing thing.  When economies disembedd and degenerate antecedent social orders they sicken society, and they generate the autonomic response.  Nations, states, individuals, institions...  all need not neccesarily be aware that there actions consitute this response.  Structure conditions action, although the level of abstraction at which this occurs blurs its true context.  And when lower level responses are inadequate, a patter of escalation occurs.  The greater the unwillingess of the economy to reembed, the greater the destructive power of the social response.  

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Fri Mar 23rd, 2007 at 09:20:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Apparently reading comprehension is not required in the vast majority of economics programs.

Nor is reading. You're just suppose to know how to quote a small selection of decontextualised soundbites from major works. Like "the invisible hand of the market" or "creative destruction".

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Mar 23rd, 2007 at 09:34:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Ceterus Paribus=Abaracadabra

Need I say more?

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Fri Mar 23rd, 2007 at 01:50:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There's so much wrong mathematically with general equilibrium theory the way it's used by economists I don't even know where to start. And, of course, if you take the mathematics away from the neoclassicists they can't hold a candle to the pre-marginalists of 150+ years ago. Which is sad.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Mar 23rd, 2007 at 03:45:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And Leon Walras's equilibrium auctioneer was part of his socialist utopia. Economists implement a not very plausible central planning protocol and call it a model of the actually existing self-regulating market.

Sandwichman
by Sandwichman on Fri Mar 23rd, 2007 at 10:31:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
This case is clearly an example of waste! To job the postman gets payed for is obviously to deliver mail. Anything else he does will not bring profit to the Post, which will then not be competing with maximum efficiency in the marketplace. It is worse than this, even. Those old people, since they can rely on the postman, don't contribute to GDP as they would were they to obtain those same services in the proper way, i.e. by paying for them. Also, the 'postman system' is obviously inherently unfair! It may come down to the personal likes and dislikes of the postman, for example, rather than to an unbiased distribution of services based on who can pay for what, which will yield the optimum distribution of such services, and GDP growth.

It was after hurricane Katrina that we were reminded of how 'price gauging' is actually good, with the example of bottled water. The one than needs the water the most will obviously be willing to pay more for it, and the rise in price is therefore beneficial to yield an efficient distribution. Otherwise we would have to rely on the biased judgment of the man with the water. Do you trust him to give it to the most needy? No? Well, I guess then the 'neutral' parameters of 'price' and availability of 'money' to the 'consumer' will have to do!

by someone (s0me1smail(a)gmail(d)com) on Fri Mar 23rd, 2007 at 06:49:31 AM EST
It was after hurricane Katrina that we were reminded of how 'price gauging' is actually good, with the example of bottled water. The one than needs the water the most will obviously be willing to pay more for it, and the rise in price is therefore beneficial to yield an efficient distribution. Otherwise we would have to rely on the biased judgment of the man with the water. Do you trust him to give it to the most needy? No? Well, I guess then the 'neutral' parameters of 'price' and availability of 'money' to the 'consumer' will have to do!

When I get home tonight I'll quote a (literally) textbook example on the price of water. If I forget, shout!

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Mar 23rd, 2007 at 06:55:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
How right you are. An example occurred three or four years ago in this part of France, when the new postmaster in a small town at the foot of the mountains realized the shamefully inefficient allocation of resources that was caused by his postpeople's practice of running small errands for people in mountain villages. He immediately understood the appropriate reaction was to bill old ladies without vehicles so much a week for bread-carrying or medicine brought up from the town pharmacie.

Would you believe that the fractious French and their communist unions made such a fuss the case got splashed all over the papers and got on TV and everything? That public-spirited postmaster held on courageously, but in the end had to give up, and I believe was quietly moved elsewhere.

That's France for you. But, with the liberalisation of postal services that will serve to make rural distribution even more wastefully expensive (because not offset by margins made on lower-cost urban operations), logic will prevail and soon the rural French will be lucky if they see a yellow van once a fortnight.

Which is as it should be.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri Mar 23rd, 2007 at 07:46:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There is a shift taking place in the world that mainstream economists (or self-proclaimed economists) don't understand. Part of it is the development of new measures of "success" for society. The reaction of the economic community has been one of panic. Not only will all their models become outmoded, but even their core expertise will be undermined. So they bluster, there is little else they can do.

It is not important to listen to the specific arguments, in many cases they contradict themselves or each other. Just listen to the tone.

The other point is to suggest reading the recent book by Bill McKibben "Deep Economy". He "gets" the ideas about new measures of success and popularizes the work of the ecological economists like Herman Daly and Robert Costanza. He is also one of the few authors I have seen promoting the idea of doing with less. Some of his ideas are a bit utopian, but this may not be a bad thing when trying to energize a new movement.

PS. Al Gore's testimony before congress the other day seems to have gone further than he was willing to do in the past. I reported on a speech in made in the fall about "smart growth" and such easy steps, but he is now proposing more concrete actions. These include an immediate freeze on new coal power plants unless they include sequestration. Also shifting to CFL bulbs within a few years, de facto adoption of Kyoto by means of legislation without ratifying the treaty, and moving the next round of restrictions to 2010 from 2012.

You can watch his testimony on YouTube. I'm not very good at navigating through the site, but searching on NancyPelosi as the uploader will get you to the right area.

Policies not Politics
---- Daily Landscape

by rdf (robert.feinman@gmail.com) on Fri Mar 23rd, 2007 at 09:54:50 AM EST
True stories.

Paris. An handicapped person in a wheelchair tries to board a bus. No one will move to make room for the chair. The bus driver, seeing this, asks the passengers on the public address system to step aside and let the handicapped person get on the bus. No one moves. After a few tries, the bus driver gets everybody off his bus, helps the man in the chair on the bus, and drives off with his single passenger.

Story told by the bus driver himself.

Paris region. Buses have been fitted with special lowerable platforms by an organisation in charge of taking handicapped shool boys/girls on wheelchairs to their schools, out in the suburbs. The drivers' pay is calculated so that they have an incentive to stop as little as possible. Result : They usually claim the platform does not work, and drop off the children wherever results in a faster stop. Said children then will then just wheel their way back to school.

Story told by an handicapped child father.

by balbuz on Fri Mar 23rd, 2007 at 10:35:13 AM EST
Can I recommend a book by the professor in Economics at Toulouse University, which deals precisely with these issues of a wider network around economics?

The Company of Strangers
. By Paul Seabright.

See for example This review
 (in French) which says the theme of the book is


(Comment la vie sociale est-elle possible ? Comment une telle organisation du travail, faisant dépendre de façon cruciale la vie de chacun d'étrangers distants, peut-elle fonctionner ? L'auteur nous convie donc à une histoire naturelle de la coopération humaine qui fait la vie économique et la spécificité de notre espèce..)


(How is social life possible ? How can such a pattern  of work organisation function, in which the life of each person is crucially dependent on distant strangers ? The author lays out for us a natural history of human co-operation which is made up of economic life and the specific characteristics of our species.) My translation - apologies for any infelicities.

One chapter deals approvingly with precisely the kind of enriching activities as the  socially active rural postal staff discussed here.

This book is definitely within the `Liberal Tradition' that gets so many sneering references on Eurotrib, but I suspect some will be surprised by its material and approach.

What do people here think?

by saugatojas on Sun Mar 25th, 2007 at 10:07:32 AM EST

This book is definitely within the `Liberal Tradition' that gets so many sneering references on Eurotrib

You know, it's not the liberal tradition that gets sneering references, but the version currently promoted (in steamroller fashion) by partisans that ignore the tradition. We are mostly careful to call them neolibs rather than liberals.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Mon Mar 26th, 2007 at 05:06:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Why not just drop the Liberal from the label, call them neoconservatives ( a label many themselves actually claim with pride) or market worshippers.

I do think the language used here is often blinkering. This group is referred to on A fistful Of Eros as the 'Collectifs antiliberaux'  by the way.

by saugatojas on Mon Mar 26th, 2007 at 12:14:23 PM EST
"A Fistful of Eros" is a blog I should read more ... sounds like fun.

We do, often, call them market worshippers and all sorts of other things. Neoconservative has a distinct and separate meaning.

This group is referred to ... as the 'Collectifs antiliberaux'  by the way.

By whom?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Mar 26th, 2007 at 12:17:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I do think the language used here is often blinkering.

Which parts of the language?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Mar 26th, 2007 at 12:22:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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