Welcome to European Tribune. It's gone a bit quiet around here these days, but it's still going.
Display:
Well, alpha does not have to be male thing in this context. My core suspicion is that social systems without clear leadership structure are not sufficiently developed in human "practice".

Nevertheless, I am concerned that there were no big matriarchal societes thriving until the modern times. Can agression of male tribes be the only reason? Or is there some complication (of over-excitement?!) that feminine societies have yet to overcome?

But women can be the only thing to save this world. You see, a big lot of modern consumption comes from men doing their best to please their women. If only women would say that they don't necessarily need a landscape destroyed to have own happy corner created, or would shift their choice preferences somewhat, the world could be saved amazingly easy.

by das monde on Wed Mar 7th, 2007 at 08:47:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It all depends on how you define trhiving.. if by thriving you mean technological development .. you are right.. but there were only a few of them who get clearly ahead on that area.

If you think thriving is solving the social instabilities... and social problems.. or that thriving is having a complex socio-symbolic structures (rich and amazing).. then patriarhal and amtriarchal cna give you examples of both (and the eskimos with their family being our"type" of family as well).

Would you like some reading about it?

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Thu Mar 8th, 2007 at 05:26:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
By thriving I mean a relatively stable society continuing up to modern times. I am keen to see an interesting example (by any definition), but I would like then to know what happened at its end as well.
by das monde on Thu Mar 8th, 2007 at 07:07:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Myabe you woudl like this

http://www.second-congress-matriarchal-studies.com/du.html

Of course fighting back means exaggerating a little bit your claims like they did in the congress.. but I could get the data from the narrative behind.

Egalitarian gender societies exist indeed and they could be the majority thousands of years ago before civilization... Gender division is a civilaztory characteristic I would dare to say (almost without porrof).

Even int he last two hudnred years the number of soceities where both gneder roles were different but equally relevant and even they can be interchangeable did exist.

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Thu Mar 8th, 2007 at 05:47:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What would they say in this diary?
by das monde on Thu Mar 8th, 2007 at 07:10:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There are lot of societies where the concept of self-interest does nto exist.. Actually the great majority ... actually only ours has a concept of self so much in the "extreme".

We and the bororos (not to be confused with the bononos) have two extrme vision .. we believe in "self" explicitly, bororos believe in the "colletivity of minds" explicitly.. most of the others society do not give a damn about those mythes. I mena they do nto have it, they do not exist. Most societies are positional.

It is not that they do not give a damn.. it is just no in their world view.. like adolescence for most of socieities except us this concept doe snot exist. (well actually even my grandma did not know about that adolescence stuff sicne the adolescence myths is quite recentn like fifty years).

The proper question is how you change such a basic and fuandmental mythology of western societies like the one about "you are one entity whose sense in the world is to become a person adn become better,and improve..and grow".. well you know all that stuff about being one person aand independent which must look for self-realization.

It is an absolute fact that in this case our culture is not really the mainstream one (by mainstream I mean number of societies, not of people) and actually this mythology came quite late in our technological development.. although some people claim that it helped to give the last push in the industrial revolution.

So Colman problem is "our" problem .. not the problem of human kind.

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Thu Mar 8th, 2007 at 07:31:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I agree much. It is tricky to accept that your world view is not mainstream in a large picture, especially when it is most influential at the moment.
by das monde on Thu Mar 8th, 2007 at 07:46:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There are lot of societies where the concept of self-interest does nto exist

I don't believe you: citations please?  I can believe that the expression, phrasing and emphasis is different but I have a hard time believing that there is no concept of self-interest. How do you avoid starving to death if you're not willing to act in your own interest?

You're generally citing precisely the isolated cultures outside the mainstream. The Chinese were discussing the tension between self-interest and group-interest thousands of years ago as well. Not sure about the Indians, but since they tended to act as the bridge between China and Europe I'd assume they were infected too.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Mar 8th, 2007 at 08:11:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You're generally citing precisely the isolated cultures outside the mainstream.

You're clearly an unreconstructed evil imperialist and must be reeducated.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Mar 8th, 2007 at 08:20:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
We knew that already.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Mar 8th, 2007 at 08:44:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Resistance is futile.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Mar 8th, 2007 at 09:03:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
As a side issue, how isolated in breeding terms are the populations you're talking about? To what extent have environmental pressures differentiated the balance of their innate tendencies from those of the mainstream? And to what extent is the balance of tendencies in 21st C humans different to that of 18th C humans. Does improved nutrition change mental development? How many complicating factors can I dig up here?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Mar 8th, 2007 at 08:46:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
How many complicating factors can I dig up here?

You're just trying to confuse the issue.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Mar 8th, 2007 at 08:59:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No, just trying to point out that the issue is confused.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Mar 8th, 2007 at 09:01:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You see, a big lot of modern consumption comes from men doing their best to please their women.

Because women don't spend a lot of effort consuming and displaying, no.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Mar 8th, 2007 at 05:50:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Nope. Only men compete for mates and status. Well known fact.

Please ignore the fashion industry, if you wouldn't mind.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Mar 8th, 2007 at 06:00:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
My snarkometer is giving me an ambiguous reading.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Mar 8th, 2007 at 06:01:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Much of the fashion stuff comes onto guy's account anyway, eventually ;-)
by das monde on Thu Mar 8th, 2007 at 08:58:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
This is an old fashioned male chauvinist comment

"Dieu se rit des hommes qui se plaignent des conséquences alors qu'ils en chérissent les causes" Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet
by Melanchthon on Fri Mar 9th, 2007 at 04:01:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I meant something more mysterious. But yeah, I realize I did not make myself look good. I will have to pay for this...
by das monde on Fri Mar 9th, 2007 at 04:39:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Display:

Occasional Series