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To promise higher EU subsidies, and that not only for border-corssing lines themselves? Two notes:

  1. The most ambitious Spanish-French project is a 40 km Trans-Pyrenées base tunnel, both for high-speed and freight. But this may be comfortably in the far future for decisionmakers to do much, and to do anything on access lines.

  2. For a really competitive Madrid-Paris train service, we'd need even higher top speeds, and (a) a fully built-out Irún/Bayonne corridor or (b) long new high-speed access lines to the Transpyrenées tunnel or (c) Perpignan-Monpellier and a new Paris-St. Etienne-(Valence), even more than for higher high-speed to have the capacity (Paris-Lyon is nearing saturation in rush-hour).


*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Apr 4th, 2007 at 06:43:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Do you have or can point to data on the PAris Lyon traffic and saturation ? I'm interested

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Wed Apr 4th, 2007 at 06:52:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Will look it up.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Apr 4th, 2007 at 06:54:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I haven't found a direct path data, so had to look through the timeplans.  

The busiest section is Moisenay junction to Pasilly junction (e.g. the end of the Interconnexion to the branch-off towards Dijon). I looked up Monday and direction away from Paris (Gare de Lyon/Massy/CDG). Between 15:50 and 20:00, I counted 46 trains (may have missed some).

Minimum headway was 5 minutes on the old units with old signalling, it's now 3 minutes with the TVM 430. But scheduled times usually alternate between 4 and 6 min, only sometimes down to the 3 min minimum. Yet this is not being generous with time: you need some buffer for lateness, and if the previous train has one more stop, then the next non-stop train must leave a longer buffer for the first train to accelerate back.

So with view to this, between these 46 trains from 15:50 and 20:00, I found just six empty slots (had they been used by trains from Gare de Lyon: 16:14, 16:34, 16:40, 19:34, 19:50, 19:54). And those slots will certainly be filled up once the TGV Rhin-Rhône and the line to Turin are built. Pretty close to saturation.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Thu Apr 5th, 2007 at 07:01:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks a lot. That's certainly close to saturation...

However, how is TGV Rhin-Rhône supposed to feed that branch?

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères

by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Fri Apr 6th, 2007 at 04:43:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Despite the name, LGV Rhin-Rhône is an Y concept, with the three branches pointing to Mulhouse, Lyon -- and Paris, across Dijon.

Though, it is just the Ouest branch that'll be built last, and until then, Mulhouse will also get access from Paris via Strasbourg, so maybe there won't be much of a frequency increase via Dijon when the first leg opens (2011?).

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Fri Apr 6th, 2007 at 05:24:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The first leg being the Est one, sorry. (For that one, construction already began.) Also, I see the LGV Rhin-Rhône now also has its own homepage.



*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Fri Apr 6th, 2007 at 05:33:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The shortest Madrid-Paris route is through Irun, and I'm guessing doing Madrid-Zaragoza-Irun might be easier than a more direct route straigh north from Madrid because one can follow the Ebro river basin up from Zaragoza rather than having to cross the Central System running SW-NE.

Madrid-Zaragoza-Irun-Bordeaux-Tours-Paris is 1400 Km according to Google maps. That's 4 hours at 350 Km/h [though I'm not counting the stops]. It would blow all but low-cost flights out of the water, because of the time to get to/from the airports at either end, and the waiting times at check-in and baggage collection.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Apr 4th, 2007 at 06:56:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Drawing from this discussion, I suppose I should look at intermediate stops no less than 133Km apart (corresponding to 30 minutes). Madrid - Zaragoza - San Sebastian - Bordeaux - Tours -Paris could take 5h10m.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Apr 4th, 2007 at 07:51:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The problem is of course not finding the shortest route, but the one optimising both for length and new major tunnels to build.

As things stand, Zaragoza to Pamplona will be a partial high-speed line, the rest in direction of San Sebastián less certain, while the main route towards Irún will be through the Guadarrama tunnel to Valladolid, across Burgos to Vitoria, then on the Basque Y ("Y Vasca") to Irún (altogether c. 530 km). Madrid to Irún will be c. 2h20m, the Paris to Bordeaux line (535 km), if all ready by 2016, is promised at 2h10m, a Bordeaux-Dax-border line (235 km) could be done in one hour, that would add up to 5h30m. But 350 km/h and non-stop, 1300 km, even 3h50m would seem possible.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Wed Apr 4th, 2007 at 10:36:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Are you saying that the existing Guadarrama tunnel on the A6 highway would be used for the high-speed rail, while the series of tunnels on the A1 (most notably, Somosierra, but there are others) would not? Because going to Burgos via Valladolid is a sizeable detour.

Of course, politically, the Autonomous Community of Castilla-Leon would prefer to see Valladolid served first. I wouldn't be surprised if the connection between Burgos and the Basque Y takes a long while to be completed, especially if the PP is in the National government.

Valladolid would likely become a hub in any event, serving Madrid, Burgos-Vitoria, Galicia and Porto.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Apr 4th, 2007 at 10:58:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No, I meant the 28.419/28.408 m long Guadarrama tunnel (both tubes of which have been holed through in 2005), on the new Madrid-Valladolid high-speed line, which will be the world's 4th longest when the line opens at the end of this year...



*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Wed Apr 4th, 2007 at 11:33:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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