European Salon de News, Discussion et Klatsch – 11 May | 106 comments (106 topical, editorial, 0 hidden)

Re: This, That, and the Other (none / 1)

There is an issue here of cultural continuity. After the Pharaohs came the Hellenistic civilisation, then the Romans, then Byzantium and then Islam, with the Caliphate at Damascus, then at Baghdad, then the Mamluks, and the Ottomans... The pyramids must have been rather alien to Islamic Egypt, and so they were to the West, but during the Enlightenment the West "invented" anthropology, ethnography, and archaeology and in the 19th century the intelligentsia was absolutely fascinated (see orientalism) with this kind of stuff.

Bush is a symptom, not the disease.

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri May 11th, 2007 at 10:47:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This, That, and the Other (none / 0)

The pyramids must have been rather alien to Islamic Egypt

Which islam do you mean ? The current increasingly fundamentalist egypt only has its roots in the Nasser revolution of 48, where the muslim brotherhood were invited into his government (they declined).

You only have to go on the streets of the poorer districts to see the truth that culturally the egyptians do not have austere traditions, they are largely a party people who love music and dancing (and drinking booze and smoking dope). So, if there is a disinclination towards intellectual examination of history, I don't think it comes from islam.

I have often suspected that the egyptians know that their history is pretty complicated with much that conflicts with islam and several points of disconnection with ancient egypt. Like most peoples they want to be proud of their country and so effect a cultural disinterest as there is a difference between knowing something and having to assimilate that and thinking something is possible but let's not look too closely.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Fri May 11th, 2007 at 11:04:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This, That, and the Other (none / 0)

I mean the Islam of the 7th century, already.

Bush is a symptom, not the disease.

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri May 11th, 2007 at 11:11:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This, That, and the Other (none / 1)

And given that Islam developed as a direct reaction against polytheism, and that a key episode in the life of the Prophet Muhammad was the return to Mecca and destruction of the idols around the Ka'aba, yes, it is a reasonable assumption that the polytheism of earlier Egyptian civilizations would not have sat easily with the newly Muslim Egyptians.

Perhaps it is a testament to the Egyptians' appreciation for their cultural heritage that the pharaonic mounments were not destroyed or defaced. Well, not except by those who destroyed or damaged them in the act of stealing them, like for example the Champollion at tomb of Seti I. I'm sure he was just showing his respect when he removed those walls.

by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Fri May 11th, 2007 at 11:21:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This, That, and the Other (none / 1)

Well, there were Muslim rulers who attempted to destroy pharaonic monuments. Saladin's son, Sultan Othman, tried to take apart the smallest of the Gizeh pyramids in AD 1196/7, but gave up after eight months that produced this:

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Fri May 11th, 2007 at 12:28:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This, That, and the Other (none / 1)

The Taliban had modern artillery to destroy the buddhas of Bamyan, and the destruction was not total.

Bush is a symptom, not the disease.

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri May 11th, 2007 at 12:32:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This, That, and the Other (4.00 / 2)

Also the Sphynx:

The one-meter-wide nose on the face is missing. A legend that the nose was broken off by a cannon ball fired by Napoléon's soldiers still survives, as do diverse variants indicting British troops, Mamluks, and others. However, sketches of the Sphinx by Frederick Lewis Norden made in 1737 and published in 1755 illustrate the Sphinx without a nose. The Egyptian historian al-Maqrizi, writing in the fifteenth century, attributes the vandalism to Muhammad Sa'im al-Dahr, a Sufi fanatic from the khanqah of Sa'id al-Su'ada. In 1378, upon finding the Egyptian peasants making offerings to the Sphinx in the hope of increasing their harvest, Sa'im al-Dahr was so outraged that he destroyed the nose. Al-Maqrizi describes the Sphinx as the "Nile talisman" on which the locals believed the cycle of inundation depended.

Bush is a symptom, not the disease.

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri May 11th, 2007 at 12:36:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This, That, and the Other (none / 0)

Some context for that here.

by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Fri May 11th, 2007 at 01:03:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This, That, and the Other (none / 0)

Mohammed was pretty tolerant of "the people of the book", allowing them to continue unmolested. He destroyed the idols at Mecca because they were part of a funtional religious polytheism that threatened the imposition of his vision of a singular God (it didn't help that they also were symbols of political opposition).

Generally, as I understand the wars of conquests, the muslims were far far too busy fighting each other's schisms to worry too much about artefacts and buildings that were obviously abandoned. By and large, so long as (non-Abrahammatic) peoples converted, everything was pretty much left alone. I'm pretty sure that Taliban are the only muslims to have destroyed a non-functional religious site.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Fri May 11th, 2007 at 11:41:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This, That, and the Other (none / 0)

Generally, as I understand the wars of conquests, the muslims were far far too busy fighting each other's schisms to worry too much about artefacts and buildings that were obviously abandoned. By and large, so long as (non-Abrahammatic) peoples converted, everything was pretty much left alone. I'm pretty sure that Taliban are the only muslims to have destroyed a non-functional religious site.

So how does that contradict the claim that they were "alien", and that there was no cultural continuity, or interest in systematically exploring them?

Bush is a symptom, not the disease.

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri May 11th, 2007 at 11:45:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This, That, and the Other (none / 1)

After the Pharaohs came the Hellenistic civilisation

Here are my Western blinders at work: "nos ancêtres les grècques". I omitted the Persians.

Bush is a symptom, not the disease.

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri May 11th, 2007 at 12:47:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

That's alright (none / 1)

The Hellenistic culture swamped Egypt as result of the invading Persians...

by Nomad (Bjinse) on Fri May 11th, 2007 at 12:54:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

European Salon de News, Discussion et Klatsch – 11 May | 106 comments (106 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

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