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So which statements in the Telegraph article are lies according to you? It's much too easy to fob off statements you don't like by calling them lies.

As for the 35-hour week, I have nothing to suggest that it has destroyed jobs, but the jobs that the socialists promised would be created have not materialised. But it has frozen wages to compensate for the fact that employers suddenly had to pay more per hour worked. It has caused practical problems in small structures where you can't just hire 10% of a secretary to do the Saturday mornings in a small clinic, for example. So the doctor just has to do some more administrative and manual work himself. Even Royal has admitted that it's too inflexible.

As for your figures, I'm not going to research them in details, and I won't contest or confirm them either. You can present all the figures you like, but I'm personally living the misery created by the French system, and I'm listening to many others who are living the consequences too, whether they are unemployed, thrown out of the unemployment system, on RMI, trying to make a living out of casual jobs, self-employed, small business owners, homeless etc. It's personal misery after personal misery. If France's economic situation really were as good as you try to make it look, it wouldn't be misery all over the place.

As for the symbolic wealth tax that after press reports make nearly 2 French residents emigrate every day and thereby deprive the country of capital, I know from my working with expats that it nearly made a wealthy expat stay away instead of coming to France a year. It turned out that there was an exoneration for his nationality in a tax treaty, so he finally decided to come to France. The damages of the wealth tax far exceed the money it collects, but the dogmatic left prefer damaging employment and the economy rather than scrapping a damaging but symbolic tax. Wasn't it about time the French left got away from their holy cows and took a more pragmatic approach? It's the little guy who actually pays for the wealth tax because of the jobs and activity it ruins. Isn't it the socialists' vocation to look after the little guy?

by skovgaard on Sat May 5th, 2007 at 01:26:06 PM EST
I gave you the numbers in my article as to how many jobs were created in 1997-2002. Do you deny this? All studies suggest that the 35-hour week directly created 400,000 jobs, and contributed to the generally more upbeat mood in France

Again as to personal misery, you point out to anectodal evidence - I pointed you to actual numbers on poverty, unemployment and the like. Do you have any actual macro numbers you'd like to point to? Anectodally, I can point you to just as many inverse cases, which prove just as little as your own anectodes.

As to the wealth tax, do you know how little 2 people per day are? That's 7,000 over 10 years, to be compared to almost 100 times that who have more than one million dollars in net assets in France. so that's like 1% of the rich that moved in 10 years, an insignificant number for people that are anyway on the move a lot (remember what "jet" means in "jet set"?). The wealth tax certainly does not cost more than it collects - unless you can point to actual numbers again, not the spin from politically- or personally- interested operatives. The little guy certainly does not pay for the wealth tax (unless, again, you have actual information to that respect, rather than soundbites and spin).

You want anectode? As a banker, I am paid more in Paris than in London, for the exact same job, after tax, housing and school costs.

and just for your info: France attracts educated foreigners from rich countries, whereas the UK actually exports them:

Give me facts, not anectode.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sat May 5th, 2007 at 02:36:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"I gave you the numbers in my article as to how many jobs were created in 1997-2002. Do you deny this?"

No, and I do not have time for re-researching all your figures. But what matters is how many are unemployed, and that is not pretty reading in France.

"All studies suggest that the 35-hour week directly created 400,000 jobs, and contributed to the generally more upbeat mood in France"

Do you have a couple of links to those studies?

What upbeat mood in France? Where do you find that?

12% of the population in poverty, nearly 9% unemployment, is that an upbeat mood? The fact that you can point to cases of happily employed people doesn't disprove the cases that many are not. It just underscores that France is a two-tier society with some in privileged positions and some left out in the cold. Yes, it's anecdotal evidence, couples with 12% poverty and 9% unemployment. Far from ideal.

Wealth tax: What matters is that the capital and activity disappearing from France because of it exceeds the tax it would have collected. I know from first hand about that person who nearly stayed away because of that tax. I have seen estimates of the cost of the wealth tax, although it's virtually impossible to prove what the situation would have been without the wealth tax. I know from the concrete example that I would have lost income from an important client if he had stayed away because of the wealth tax had he not found the exoneration. I'm one of the little guys who are losing out because that tax keeps certain clients away. Who pays the taxes that France needs to function when the wealthy ones go away or don't come? The little guy! How do you explain that France is nearly the only western country that still has a wealth tax, while even socialist countries like Denmark and Sweden are scrapping it? That tax is nothing but an envy tax that the socialists need to keep in place for dogmatic reasons. In absolute value, it represents very little tax and the revenues could easily be replaced by other taxes that are less provocative. The psychological impact of the wealth tax is much higher than the real cost to the few who pay it. I'll never ever pay that tax but I want to see the back of it asap. Think about it!

"You want anectode? As a banker, I am paid more in Paris than in London, for the exact same job, after tax, housing and school costs."

And so what? What is the point you want to prove with that?

Maybe you have endless time to dig up facts, but I have a business to run that the state is trying to smash up, sorry. "social model" go to hell!

by skovgaard on Sun May 6th, 2007 at 09:02:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Wealth tax: What matters is that the capital and activity disappearing from France because of it exceeds the tax it would have collected.

France is consistently in the top 5 for Foreign Direct Investment, one of the most used indicators as to the attractiveness of a country for capital:

(note that UK's numbers in 2005 are inflated by the 140bn reorganisation of Shell, which was structured as a  'purchase' of Shell UK by Shell Netherlands)

For a complete picture, because I care about getting the facts straight, here's the two way numbers, on aggregate for the past 10 years:

France also has one of the biggest outflows of capital. Should this be counted under "successful internationalization of the big French corporations" , or under "capital flight"?

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sun May 6th, 2007 at 09:42:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
from the Financial Times:

Socialism (97-02) sure does not seem to have discouraged foreign investors.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sun May 6th, 2007 at 10:07:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There is indeed investment in France, but as your figures show not enough to prevent a net outgoing of capital.

But wealth tax is as you know now paid by corporations but by individuals. I don't get the idea of discouraging wealthy individuals from staying in France with their capital, not least since the wealth tax revenue is negligible in the big picture.

When they move or don't come to France, it's not only the wealth tax they don't pay, it's also income tax. The activity they don't generate in France or that is lost when they leave France means less employment and less taxes on salary and turnover.

If the wealth tax were beneficial for a country, it's very strange indeed that almost no one else has it.

by skovgaard on Sun May 6th, 2007 at 12:55:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Just as you point out the 'Shell exception' for the UK; the inflow and outflow numbers have to be broken down into what are real inflows of capital vs. outflows of capital and not paper events.
by An American in London on Thu May 17th, 2007 at 06:11:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"is how many are unemployed, and that is not pretty reading in France."

Wrong again.

by Laurent GUERBY on Sun May 6th, 2007 at 09:47:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Fine, if you find that 9% unemployment is quite all right and normal, then what can I say? You don't mind about the many jobless; that's your right, as it's everybody's right to be selfish and cynical, caring only about their own privileges.
by skovgaard on Sun May 6th, 2007 at 12:59:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
and just for your info: France attracts educated foreigners from rich countries, whereas the UK actually exports them

Actually, unless I am reading this chart wrong, as of circa 2000, France exported more "tertiary-level graduates" to OECD countries than it imports from them: 4.40% emigrated vs. 4.20% immigrated.

(Having said that, the U.K. imports 6.50% and exports 14.90%.)

Luxembourg, Norway, Spain, Sweden and Switzerland are the only European countries that import more graduates from OECD countries than export to them.

Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.

by marco on Sun May 6th, 2007 at 09:48:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Finally, skovgaard, I see I was too nice to you above.

Whose side are you on? Who are you arguing for? Now you quote the Torygraph and weep over the ultra-rich? The wealthy ex-pats that decide France might just be too costly for them without a break or two? Give it a rest.

So let's be clear. You are suffering from the system, you say? I say you got yourself into a lot of the trouble you got into. And I further say you're a confused but right-wing twerp. Stop wasting our time.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sat May 5th, 2007 at 03:43:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm on the side of the little honest guy who's taking responsibility for his own life and trying to make a decent living, not privileged civil servants or spoiled workers who can remain in protected positions with little or no risk while having all the benefits for themselves while denying them to others.

I'm not weeping for the "ultra-rich", and that is a gross misinterpretation of what I said. I'm weeping for the little guy who ends up paying the consequences of taxes like the wealth tax that the "ultra-rich" move away from while leaving the bill to the little guy and taking his job away.

So I got myself into the trouble I'm in? I followed advice from the ANPE and took a risk to earn my earn money instead of just sticking on to collecting money from the state for doing nothing. So does France need to break self-employed apart in order to work? What exactly is the trouble I got myself into? Please explain. What is clear is that if ever I find myself on the dole again and the system is still punishing initiative, I will remain on the dole collecting my rights instead of taking any risks. What is the interest of France punishing risk takes?

You're certainly the confused one if you are defending this merciless brutal system that is destroying family after family in order not to offend socialist dogmas. Have a look at real people around you instead of your statistics. Paper is so nice to conceal human misery.

The state and notably socialist hardliners force me to waste a lot of time for basic survival that the privileged parts of France, including caviar socialists, take for granted - such as heating in winter. I will not stop shouting about these crying social injustices until something is done about them. People like you are protecting only the interest of those already protected, while you don't seem to give a damn about the social disasters caused by the "social model".

Of us two, I am the one defending the most vulnerable, while you want to protect middle-class privileges. What is actually most socialist? The French version of socialism today is nothing more than a joke. It has nothing to do with socialism, really.

by skovgaard on Sun May 6th, 2007 at 09:14:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
the little honest guy who's taking responsibility for his own life and trying to make a decent living, not privileged civil servants or spoiled workers who can remain in protected positions with little or no risk while having all the benefits for themselves while denying them to others.

Exactly how are school teachers or postal carriers responsible for denying a decent living to others?

by desmoulins (gsb6@lycos.com) on Sun May 6th, 2007 at 09:50:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
By having acquired over the years that job protection and benefits are so cumbersome for employers that they won't hire the necessary staff on normal job contracts but make all sorts of manoeuvers to avoid the CDI, whether the employer is a corporation, a public company or a small business. That means that those not already inside will remain on the outside. In order to get the in, those already in would need to let go of some of their privileges. In the name of solidarity. But the principle of solidarity only applies for socialists when it's about taxing "rich" people or corporations.
by skovgaard on Sun May 6th, 2007 at 01:07:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's much too easy to fob off statements you don't like by calling them lies.

It's caviar-socialist propaganda from one end to the other. I cannot dig up all the figures etc.,

As for your figures, I'm not going to research them in details, and I won't contest or confirm them either.

No comment.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sat May 5th, 2007 at 03:52:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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