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I've never been to Madrid, so I'm for that. That makes three already. Bruno-Ken, can you take a side trip?

Hey, Grandma Moses started late!
by LEP on Wed Jun 27th, 2007 at 07:03:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But we're still thinking of spending our Xmas break in Crete or something like that...

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jun 27th, 2007 at 07:08:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There's lots of time before December.
By the way, apropos of yesterday's brief conversation; did you see Mike Stark's emotional piece on Kos pushing for support of bloggers and other progressive  auteurs of the internet? http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/6/26/232943/250

Hey, Grandma Moses started late!
by LEP on Wed Jun 27th, 2007 at 07:49:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
At the Paris meetup Colman and I had an exchange about the apparent different in culture between American and European blogger (exemplified in the differences between Booman's and ET), specifically the approach to financial rewards and the impression that American bloggers secretly want to become pundits.

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jun 27th, 2007 at 08:11:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I can't agree with that. I think American bloggers", like Kos, want  a revolution in the Democratic Party and to change things drastically from within and from a position of power (perhaps that's what you mean by "pundit.") I don't know if Kos actually wants power for himself or just want a large say.
But I don't see how financial rewards come into play. Glen Greenwald, who I feel has the finest mind on American internet, left his job as a top first amendment lawyer in New York, when he became so shocked at the shreding of the American Constitution and started his own blog on spec. As we know, it grew like wildfire and now he writes a daily column for Salon. His second book is about to come out. His outlook is totally American so I don't know if many here read him. Glen Greenwald is a true patriot and totally selfless. Surely, finances mean nothing to him. If I was his father, I would be very proud of him.
Finally we can't compare Europe and America. America is always in flux; Europe is not. That's why I like it here- I'm old and I appreciate the relative calm.

Hey, Grandma Moses started late!
by LEP on Wed Jun 27th, 2007 at 08:41:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Over to Colman ;-)

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jun 27th, 2007 at 08:45:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I've found a much greater expectation among the Americans that political blogging can/should be a career rather than civic action. It seems odd, like paying people for participating in democracy. And that's  across a fairly wide sample of bloggers. As you point out, Greenwald may not be making as much now as he was, but he's certainly making a living out of it.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Jun 27th, 2007 at 08:49:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There's also an increasingly loud complaint that we can't keep doing this unless we start getting paid. So, how did people manage to make it work before?

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jun 27th, 2007 at 08:51:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think that it's important to distinguish between the pay-me-so-I-keep-going crowd and the pay-me-to-do-something-else crowd.

If what you're aiming for is proper journalism, then in the long term somebody is going to need to be paid for a full-time commitment to doing the required leg-word - voluntary work only takes you so far. But that then makes you a traditional media outlet, more-or-less, with a business model and such things. If what you're doing is opinion/analysis stuff based on existing sources then I don't know why you'd need to be paid for it.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Jun 27th, 2007 at 08:55:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Reader sponsorship is good enough, but yes, you need some sort of board of members who decide what is a fair amount to pay you for your time.

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jun 27th, 2007 at 09:18:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
We need leaders in the democratic experiment- and leaders have to eat as well. Even though blogs are participatory I regard the blogs I go to as information and opinion sources and I donate to all the ones I read just as I would have to pay to read the New York Times. I donate here, as well as to kos, common dreams, antiwar.com and Steve Gilliard who I miss very much.
And as Coleman says right here full time people can do better work; for me the blogs are the journalism which I prefer.
And I must say that Jerome must be very good in his work to be able to post here as much as he does.
Finally I want to apologize to Ted for hijacking his wonderful photo diary and I will excuse myself for a little while;  I'm very late for my nap.

Hey, Grandma Moses started late!
by LEP on Wed Jun 27th, 2007 at 09:12:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Jérôme is leveraging specific knowledge he already has in writing most of his stuff, as are most of us. Full-time people have the advantage of being able to do original reporting. I have little evidence that they do better opinion or analysis. Most blogging isn't original reporting, and most of us aren't all that interested in doing it.

Think-tanking is another matter.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Jun 27th, 2007 at 09:16:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That nap did me a world of good. Perhaps we don't speak of the same thing. I really don't distinguish between blogs (ET, Kos, Steve Gilliard, Juan Cole,etc) and news sites (Common Dreams, antiwar.com). They're places I go to, almost every day, to get news, opinion  and analysis. At this point in time,I trust them much more than the mainstream journals. If I can participate in the discussion that's even better, and if the web sites can change things, thats much better. If they say they need money then I like to send something, to, well, pay my share. I never question what they do with the money nor do I care.
It's just my small way of saying "Fuck You" to the establishment.

Hey, Grandma Moses started late!
by LEP on Wed Jun 27th, 2007 at 10:07:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The line I'm drawing is between; opinion writing, which involves sitting at home mouthing off; primary reporting which involves making phone calls, interviews, travelling to see things for yourself; press release transcription and research work. Opinion writing doesn't need to be compensated, nor does press release transcription. Real journalism does because it's too time consuming to do as a hobby. Most of the news sites are simply writing opinions about what's in the news or other sources.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Jun 27th, 2007 at 10:15:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That's where we differ. Every newspaper pays its opinion writers, probably very well. And I'm happy to pay for opinion writers if I read them every day. I know that the closing of two blogs, Billmon (voluntary) and Steve Gilliard (death) left big holes in my heart, especially Steve who I read very day for about three years.

Hey, Grandma Moses started late!
by LEP on Wed Jun 27th, 2007 at 10:32:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Maybe we're just sick of capitalism and corporate jobs. I know I am.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Wed Jun 27th, 2007 at 07:47:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Time to rescue Revenue sharing by ThatBritGuy on October 22nd, 2006
The real problem is - is it possible to build a collaborative model that not only relies on collaborative content but also includes some element of collaborative income distribution?

I've been thinking about how this might work for TBB, and it's really not a simple problem. The six options are:

  1. Run it along Kos lines, where the site owner keeps all of the money after expenses.
  2. Run it as a benevolent dictatorship, where the site owner keeps some of the money and distributes the rest to active contributors according to a subjective assessment of value and work done.
  3. Automate the distribution to make it based on rankings of some sort, or volume of contributions.
  4. Forget about any kind of income at all, and run it on a volunteer not for profit basis.
  5. Make contributions voluntary, and include some revenue directing options so that happy readers can direct cash, or perhaps just applause, to deserving contributors.
  6. Combine 3 and 5 so that there's a special 'That really was outstanding - please pay this person some of my montly subscription' rating option, and then tally up the results at the end of the month and split the spoils accordingly.


Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jun 27th, 2007 at 10:57:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
To which I say: why should there be income?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Jun 27th, 2007 at 10:59:15 AM EST
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Coleman. Is there technically a way of moving this thread, say starting with my post at 1:49 into tonight's open thread? It might be more appreciated there.

Hey, Grandma Moses started late!
by LEP on Wed Jun 27th, 2007 at 11:17:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Seconded.  My half a quarter of one intercent's worth is...something Jerome mentioned a while back, to do with non-tangible items (non-resource-extracting items?) becoming a larger part of the economy--to the benefit of the planet.  It ties in with Migeru's comments (if I've understood them at all) with regard to Keynes: that you could bury money in bottles, get people to dig it up and: voila!  An economy.

So all "non resource destroying" activities, such as massage, teaching, or writing articles to the net, can create a self-supporting market, fed at the edges by (sustainable) resource producers, so the writer is paid by the musician who is paid by the farmer who is paid by the writer...that kind of thing.

Or, if our default position is: If you don't want to do it, you don't have to (which is fine for voluntary associations), then when it comes to earning money, we'll all head to the resource-extracting part of the economy.  I suppose we could say, "Anyone can give you a massage if they want"...no, I don't mean that in a sarky way, I mean something bigger: That if "we" (us progressive types) invest in what we think of as quality production, then there will be more quality production money around for us to...use as an alternative to resource depleting money..

So, in a hypothetical, I enjoy your writings to the point where I'm willing to directly pay my ten cents or euros.  However you think I write a pile of disjointed nonsense and prefer the keen wit and cool analysis of Migeru, who in turn favours the writings of That Brit Guy, who is a fan of LEP, who likes whataboutbob, who likes melo...

...and slowly an economy developeth?  There's something about not wanting to pay for things...that...I dunno...someone else can say this more clearly perhaps?

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Wed Jun 27th, 2007 at 11:25:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That is a really cool comment.
My half a quarter of one intercent's worth is...something Jerome mentioned a while back, to do with non-tangible items (non-resource-extracting items?) becoming a larger part of the economy--to the benefit of the planet.  It ties in with Migeru's comments (if I've understood them at all) with regard to Keynes: that you could bury money in bottles, get people to dig it up and: voila!  An economy.
First of all, the bottle example is straight out of Keynes, I'm just quoting. Second, I think the non-tangible part of the economy expands not for the benefit of the planet but for the benefit of employment. The benefit of the planet is a side effect, and is not being realised. However, the point stands that a steady state economy (in terms of resource use) need not be a stationary economy - the service sector in particular has infinite scope for growth and diversification regardless of resource use.


Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jun 27th, 2007 at 11:30:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
For medium sized values of possible, it's not possible.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Jun 27th, 2007 at 11:43:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And allow me to say at this point that Scoop is a pig to install, especially under Apache2. But it's done now, on the proper host.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Jun 27th, 2007 at 11:48:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Now, that is a comment that needs to be in the open thread.

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jun 27th, 2007 at 11:50:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Meh, still have to apply the customisations, which is another chunk of work. I should move es.et over as well, if you're going down that route rather than one of your other schemes.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Jun 27th, 2007 at 11:51:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That's been frozen since I discovered there are other parts of the interface that are broken because the stupid code uses the display value of a button (in English) as the value that gets passed to the server in HTML forms.

I wish I had time for "schemes".

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jun 27th, 2007 at 12:06:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Because the site costs money to run.

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jun 27th, 2007 at 11:20:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But that's a very different issue, and order of magnitude, from compensation for work done.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Jun 27th, 2007 at 11:44:59 AM EST
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Hopefully this does incarnate into another thread...sehr interessant! I was ruminating the other day about the idea of our creating our own online college, which would pay for ET and even put coin into people's pockets. The model already exists, so we would just have to research how it is done...and transmogrify it for our own needs.

"Once in awhile we get shown the light, in the strangest of places, if we look at it right" - Hunter/Garcia
by whataboutbob on Wed Jun 27th, 2007 at 03:22:09 PM EST
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There are many options.

To the 'Why should there be income?' question, one answer is 'Why shouldn't there be?'

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu Jun 28th, 2007 at 12:08:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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