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Why didn't the US have an election when Nixon resigned? Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?
In America, both the President and Vice President are elected. It's known when you vote that the VP will replace the President if the President cannot perform his or her duties. So you go into the voting booth knowing that. Apparently it's also a fine way of keeping a country from impeaching the President: pick a nasty VP...
And every 4 years there is an election.
When Tony Blair was elected, did people know Gordon Brown would be his successor if Blair stepped down? Or could Blair pick anyone he chose, so long as they were of the Labor party?
Also, I don't understand the term limits. Do they have them? Why could Blair step down and appoint a successor instead of having to serve out a term at the end of which would be a general election? They have something like "confidence" votes, right? To see if they can stay on? And if they win, then the only thing that prevents them from stepping down and putting a friend in charge is a Parliamentary election? Are those done on a regular schedule? "Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.
Blair did everything he could to stop Brown becoming PM, but had so commpletely neutered the party that any credible alternative had already been ruined. Brown wasn't appointed, he just won by default.
We have a parliamentary system where we vote a party, not for the Prime Minister. So the person who gets to be PM is a matter for the party and not the people. and if the individual concerned chooses to resign, that remains a matter for the party. keep to the Fen Causeway
Think of it this way: Tony Blair was elected Prime Minister (and Labour leader) in a similar sense that Nancy Pelosi was elected Speaker of the House. "The basis of optimism is sheer terror" - Oscar Wilde
Quite right. But, that was a rather exceptional case, and not how Presidents and VPs are normally elected. It's plan B or C, not plan A.
Think of it this way: Tony Blair was elected Prime Minister (and Labour leader) in a similar sense that Nancy Pelosi was elected Speaker of the House.
Ok. I can try to think of it that way. It's just compartmentalized in my head in such a way that I want to say "But the legislature and executive and the party apparatus are all very different things, with different responsibilities..." (Yes, Pelosi is in line for the Pres. but like I said, that's a worst-case-scenario backup plan.) "Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.
The way if works is that the parliament is elected for a fixed term, and they appoint a head of government from their own ranks. The head of government can dissolve the parliament ahead of time, and they can also resign or be voted out with a motion of no confidence, in which case a new head of government needs to be appointed. If the parliament cannot or will not appoint a new headof government there is a new election.
As Labour has an absolute majority of the House of Commons, Brown's appointment should be a formality. He's widely expected to call an election next year, one year earlier than expected and two years ahead of the end of the 5-year term.
In more proportional systems with multiple parties and coalition governments if the government fails usually a newcoalition cannot be assembled and a new election is called. But this has not been the case with Balkenende in the Netherlands during the previous term. He had several cabinets with changing coalitions without having to call an election because he was always able to assemble a new coalition. Also, recall the Czech parliament took several months to get a prime minister who could pass an investiture vote because the parliament was split exactly 50/50.
It's not like the US constitution, but it's not wrong. Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?
Do you think there is a much more distinct difference between parties in the UK than in the US, and that those who represent them stick to a clear platform? Is there as broad a spectrum in the Labour party as there is in the Dem. party in the US (from Kucinich & Welstone to Lieberman & Casey)? Could 2 individuals from the same party have very different platforms? And if so, how do the people ensure the leader they get upholds the values of the majority and not that of some opportunistic wing of the ruling party? "Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.
The UK has a First-Past-the-Post system like the US, so the system tends naturally towards a two-party system as in the US. However, in the UK there is a sizeable third party at the national level (the Liberal Democrats) and a number of regional parties such as the Scottish National Party, Plaid Cymru (Welsh Nationalist), and Sinn Fein (Irish Nationalist) which are able to win seats by using their local strength. And there's also the Green party
I think the differences between Labour and the Tories have been largely diluted at the national level because of the poll-driven chase of the political centre that all Western democracies seem to have embarked in. In countries with proportional representation you see less of this, with the largest two parties engaging in this game but the rest of the parties stake out more well-defined platforms.
The introduction of Proportional Representation in regional (and European) elections has helped "third parties" in the UK, too, so I think people who differ too much from the party line just split and form a different party. For instance, the UK Independence Party seems like the rabidly anti-EU wing of the Tories. But bth the Tories and Labour have (at the level of national leadership) strayed to far from their core constituency and have left a huge number of disaffected supporters.
how do the people ensure the leader they get upholds the values of the majority and not that of some opportunistic wing of the ruling party?
I don't think that is a problem plaguing most western democracies right now. The thing is, if one of the two main parties has a leader that seems more opportunistic, it's likely they'll lose the swing voters in the centre. I think that's ultimately what's going to hurt David Cameron. He's even more opportunistic than Brown or Blair have ever been. Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?
I don't know what you are talking about and this conversation is ending here. I have no place for unecessary nastiness in my life right now. "Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.
Indeed, if everything had gone according to the intentions of the Founding Fathers, a party system would not have arisen at all, but at least there are limitations on the institutional power of political parties in the US system.
The parliamentary system in Australia is, in part, an effort to meld parts of each system, with half of each state's Senate delegation elected in each Senate election, acting as a genuine Balance of Power institution against the party in power in the Australian House of Representatives ... provided that the governing party does not also hold the balance of power in the Senate. The recent experience in Australia of working without a check on the actions of the governing party seems likely to restore a position with a third party ... probably the Australian Greens ... with the balance of power. I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.
There is no term of office for a prime minister. The prime minister holds office "at Her Majesty's pleasure". As however to gain supply (control of exchequer funds) that requires that the government be answerable to, and acceptable to, the House of Commons, in reality the convention "at her Majesty's pleasure" means "at the pleasure of the House of Commons". Whenever the office of Prime Minister falls vacant, the Sovereign is responsible for appointing the new incumbent; the appointment is formalised at a ceremony known as Kissing Hands. In accordance with unwritten constitutional conventions, the Sovereign must appoint the individual most likely to maintain the support of the House of Commons: usually, the leader of the party which has a majority in that House. If no party has a majority (an unlikely occurrence, given the United Kingdom's First Past the Post electoral system), two or more groups may form a coalition, whose agreed leader is then appointed Prime Minister. The majority party becomes "Her Majesty's Government," and the next largest party becomes "Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition." The head of the largest Opposition party becomes the Leader of the Opposition and holds the title Leader of Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition. By tradition, before a new Prime Minister can enter 10 Downing Street for the first time as its occupant, he or she is required to announce to the country and the world that he or she has kissed hands with the monarch of the day, and thus has become Prime Minister. This is usually done by saying words to the effect of:"Her Majesty the Queen [His Majesty the King] has asked me to form an administration and I have accepted."Although it wasn't required, Tony Blair also said these words after he was re-elected in 2001 and 2005.
"Her Majesty the Queen [His Majesty the King] has asked me to form an administration and I have accepted."
That's on paper. In practice, the Preznit says "Congress must act on this urgent issue" and has a Congressperson introduce the legislation that the White House has prepared already. And the White House works in concert with the party apparatus to support (or undermine) local and state politicians. Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?
The US wins by having at least a nominal culture of representation, where no one seems to believe that contacting a representative to express a view on an issue is a strange thing to do.
The representative probably won't listen and it may not influence how they vote - they have their business colleagues to keep sweet too - but it's just as possible that s/he will and it will.
The UK doesn't have that. MPs are used as local authorities in disputes - if you don't like the new road plans, talk to your MP - but there's absolutely no real sense that they represent local people in parliament, or that local people expect them to listen to their views.
Some MPs actually do represent their constituencies quite thoughtfully. But one of the turn-abouts of the Blair years has been the erosion of that process into irrelevance.
What happens now is that Party HQ picks MPs and tells them what to do. 'Party loyalty' is a prerequisite for promotion, and means voting to order and speaking to order, often against your personal views.
Independent rabble-rousers, like Ken Livingstone and George Galloway, usually leave their home parties and go independent. And it would take a complete overhaul of the UK system to turn this around.
What's not talked about is the fact that politics in the UK is utterly corrupt. The revolving door between business and politics means that politicians can use their time in Westminster to lay-out an employment case for themselves.
Not all MPs do this, but enough of them do it to make the process as a whole democratically irrelevant.
So Westminster now is mostly political pantomime. The opposition tries to score points, but no one really takes it all that seriously. And I think most people would laugh if you suggested a 30s, 40s or 50s style public service ethic might be important.
That's something I absolutely don't undestand. Every time a problem is discussed at our child's school, people immediately suggest going to the MP without trying to deal with the relevant authorities (the ones that have actual decision-making power over the issue) first. And if you had to go to the central government you'd go to the department of education, or something, not to the MP, surely?
It seems like a throwback to feudal times to me. Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?
It seems like a throwback to feudal times to me.
Throwback ?? What makes you think it was ever different ? keep to the Fen Causeway
Obviously I have a vested interest. But even so - if not here exactly, there's always Oxford.
Oh, so not in the UK after all. keep to the Fen Causeway
Maybe we ought to do a poll to find out where our members are so that we can plan accordingly. No use keep doing it in London if everybody's up north. Good for you and me, but possibly not anyone else. keep to the Fen Causeway
I don't mind taking a train to wherever, to be honest. Someone should post a diary about a September meetup and try to get the 100 lurkers out in the clear. Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?
Edinburgh might be another alternative...
The idea is that you go to your MP because your MP is allowed to deal with the relevant authorities, while you most certainly aren't.
Local councillors are mid-way between the two. They get some local power over local issues, but they still have to defer to Whitehall and Westminster on most issues.
So it's actually easier to talk to an MP because s/he will be one point of contact and can find the correct pressure point. If you try to find that point yourself you're more likely to end up being bounced from one place to another, with no one taking an responsibility - never mind bothering to answer your letters and emails.
Metaphorically, people in the UK are subjects, not citizens, and the political environment still reflects that.
The media and academic battle is still the most important one, I think. Think tanks and consultancies are far more influential than MPs or councillors are. With the right leverage you can make a far bigger difference with far less effort, time or money.
... people in the UK are subjects, not citizens ...
Great quote, I'm going to steal that and use it out of context. ;)
This is the secret to incumbency, and at least in the US it generates something like a 5% advantage at the polls for an incumbent. I imagine this matters less in Britain where politics is more fluid with no less that three parties being serious players. And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg
But the legislature and executive and the party apparatus are all very different things, with different responsibilities...That's on paper. In practice, the Preznit says "Congress must act on this urgent issue" and has a Congressperson introduce the legislation that the White House has prepared already.
But the legislature and executive and the party apparatus are all very different things, with different responsibilities...
That's on paper. In practice, the Preznit says "Congress must act on this urgent issue" and has a Congressperson introduce the legislation that the White House has prepared already.
That's on paper too! From Article II, Section 3 of the U.S. Constitution:
He shall from time to time give to the Congress Information of the State of the Union, and recommend to their Consideration such Measures as he shall judge necessary and expedient;
The annual "State of the Union" speech derives from this, but so does the recommedation of legislation throughout the year.
Incidentally, I had completely forgotten about the next part of that sentence:
he may, on extraordinary Occasions, convene both Houses, or either of them, and in Case of Disagreement between them, with Respect to the Time of Adjournment, he may adjourn them to such Time as he shall think proper;
I don't suppose that this has ever been done.
Well, only "in case of disagreement between [the House and Senate]". And since those bodies usually convene and adjourn independently, then one should be able to argue that they have agreed on such independence, rendering the President powerless. Also, the "adjourn to" language makes me suspect that he would have to state a time of their reconvening. Plus, every two years there's a new Congress, so things should return to default status then.
But I'm just trying to interpret vague language that, as I said before, has probably never been used. After all, it's a myth that our (the U.S.) Constitution was all written down in 1787, as our "strict constructionists" pretend. Really, we rely on tradition just as much as the UK's unwritten constitution, and even Supreme Court decisions have recognised this. So if any President tried to activate these powers, then this would cause a constitutional crisis, just as if (in the UK) the Sovereign were to try to exercise theoretical powers that have not been used for centuries. ("Sorry, Mr Blair, I don't accept your resignation, and I refuse to appoint Mr Brown, because I don't like his looks.")
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