strangely... | 41 comments (41 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

Re: strangely... (none / 0)

Today I saw news of a report claiming that British lamb is 4-times less energy efficient than NZ lamb, and that therefore it still makes sense environmentally to ship it from there rather than buy local produce. They said the whole impact needed to be assessed, and not just the distance travelled.

My reaction was to think a carbon[-equivalent] tax was the easiest way to take into account the various contributions, but I also immediately though "nah, a tax is politically inviable".

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 4th, 2007 at 06:02:34 AM EST

On distance (none / 0)

I'm not convinced by campaigns against very long distance travel. 500km by truck are a lot more damaging than 15,000km in a boat (plane travel for things like strawberries and flowers is obviously something different).

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Mon Jun 4th, 2007 at 06:06:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: On distance (none / 0)

One never knows what all these reports are actually counting unless one reads the small print. I think in this case the report was from a NZ university

A survey by scientists at the University of Lincoln in New Zealand, concluded that lamb imported from New Zealand is four times as energy efficient as lamb reared in the UK, even when carbon emissions from the transport process are taken into account.
The study calculated 688kg of CO2 is emitted per tonne of carcass, through the lamb production process in New Zealand, compared to 2,849.1kg in the UK.
Researchers said the style of farming in New Zealand is considered to be less intensive than in Britain because of the large areas of land.

Like I said, the solution would be to tax carbon equivalent everywhere. Like we do with VAT, we could have a "Greenhouse Added Tax".

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 4th, 2007 at 06:14:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

'Carbon Content Tax' (none / 1)

to follow the VAT model, companies should pay CCT on any product they sell, but would get the right to refunds for what they buy - that would help enforcement, like for VAT.

And that would make it easy to impose on imports as well.

Now to define 'carbon content' of a good or service...

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Mon Jun 4th, 2007 at 06:18:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 'Carbon Content Tax' (none / 0)

Now to define 'carbon content' of a good or service...

It's not the carbon content of the good or service, but the amount of carbon-equivalent of the greenhouse gases released by the production process. But this would make it tricky to tax automotive fuel for private consumption. But, in the case of final products the consumer can be charged for the expected environmental impact at the time of purchase, not from actual environmental impact at a later date.

Note that generally the 'carbon content' of the inputs is higher than the carbon content of the outputs of a production process, and the difference is released.

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 4th, 2007 at 06:33:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 'Carbon Content Tax' (none / 0)

One could take a sample "good" and incinerate it, and measure the concentration of various greenhouse gases.

For services, the entire carbon content of the inputs is released as the inputs are consumed.

Now I'm thinking that in this model cow farts are a good way to avoid taxation. So if the carbon tax were high enough it would become economically efficient to use animals instead of motor vehicles for agricultural work and local transport. It would be an amusing return of the horse and ox economy.

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 4th, 2007 at 06:43:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 'Carbon Content Tax' (none / 1)

Good idea. How about carousel fraud?

(Also see the delightful description in the VAT article of the British judicial system.)

With high-CCT-value items like oil, it seems you could make a fortune through carefully timed bankrupcy.

-----
sapere aude

by Number 6 on Mon Jun 4th, 2007 at 09:11:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: On distance (none / 1)

This has been brought up here before. I haven't time to go into it in detail, but it sounds self-serving to me. What may be true about it is that NZ lamb is an extensive land-use product. But there is not that much intensive about European lamb production either.

And what is not stated is that NZ lamb, from wool-bearing breeds (Merinos-type) is lower quality than European lamb. Nor that the ship voyage = deep freezing. Generally, this means NZ lamb is used in mass food supply - works canteens, institutional meals, food industry ready-made meals. Few consumers will buy a frozen NZ leg of lamb rather than a fresh European one, despite the price difference.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Jun 4th, 2007 at 06:25:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: On distance (none / 0)

So UK lamb and NZ lamb is not substitutes?

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 4th, 2007 at 06:34:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: On distance (none / 0)

No. Apples and oranges.

NZ has had a quasi-monopoly on low-quality lamb and mutton in the EU since this was negotiated as part of the UK entry package in 1973. The British Isles (that includes the Irish Republic) were pretty much set up as the main higher-quality producers to the EEC (to the immediate detriment of producers elsewhere, France for example). That situation has since settled down somewhat, since there are in fact national and regional tastes to be considered, (comparative advantage doesn't appear to take that into account), such as British lamb being fatter than French taste enjoys, or there being a market for very young lamb in Spain. So national and regional production has gradually built up again.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Jun 4th, 2007 at 07:20:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: On distance (none / 0)

NZ has had a quasi-monopoly on low-quality lamb and mutton in the EU since this was negotiated as part of the UK entry package in 1973.

!!!

there are in fact national and regional tastes to be considered, (comparative advantage doesn't appear to take that into account)

Yes, comparative advantage only works for perfectly substitutable products.

What you're describing is monopolictic competicion where producers specialise in slightly different products and either take advantage of consumer preferences or hope for them to develop.

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 4th, 2007 at 07:56:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: On distance (none / 1)

Interesting stuff, afew.

McMutton, anyone?

-----
sapere aude

by Number 6 on Mon Jun 4th, 2007 at 08:43:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: On distance (none / 0)

Who will keep the register?

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Mon Jun 4th, 2007 at 07:38:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: On distance (none / 0)

I don't know. Who keeps the VAT register?

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 4th, 2007 at 07:58:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: On distance (none / 0)

VAT is the same on each product (or there are up to 3 rates). There is no need for a register of products with the carbon emissions of each.

What I mean is that the management costs of your proposal become prohibitive at some point.

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Mon Jun 4th, 2007 at 08:42:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: On distance (none / 0)

Doesn't REACH involve a register of products?

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 4th, 2007 at 08:44:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: On distance (none / 0)

Only of chemicals (and maybe processes, I don't know). Not of products in which chemicals are used.

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Mon Jun 4th, 2007 at 09:03:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: strangely... (none / 1)

Today I saw news of a report claiming that British lamb is 4-times less energy efficient than NZ lamb, and that therefore it still makes sense environmentally to ship it from there rather than buy local produce.

And then people wonder why I keep saying economics is about analysing the wrong things for the wrong reasons using the wrong tools and coming to the wrong conclusions.

Why is British lamb four times less energy efficient? Does anyone know?

I'm having some difficulty understanding how lamb needs to be energy efficient at all, because I'd guess it spends most of its time running around a field making 'Meh' noises.

Is it the slaughter? The transportation? Freezing? Something else?

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Mon Jun 4th, 2007 at 06:18:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: strangely... (4.00 / 2)

As I suggest above, I think they make out NZ sheep farming is more extensive, more "free-range", being essentially based, as in Australia, on wool-bearing breeds running on very extensive pasture.

But British or other European lamb is fairly extensive too, a great deal of sheep farming going on in moorland and upland areas that are little suited to anything else. The final phase of fattening is the most intensive. That may give NZ an energy edge, but certainly not a quality edge. It's comparing apples with oranges.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Jun 4th, 2007 at 06:31:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: strangely... (none / 0)

It sounds like total borrocks to me. I might have been persuaded if the subject were beef or pork, but not lamb. After all, lamb may be driven in lorries from darkest Wales to a supermarket depot in SW England for packing before sending out to London, but the NZ lamb faces the same journey from a port.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Jun 4th, 2007 at 06:54:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: strangely... (none / 0)

I was thinking about this this weekend. Before the 1980's London had a major port, but that must obviously gone out of business and nos the Docklands are redeveloped. So, where do the imports come into the UK, and where does London get its supplies?

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 4th, 2007 at 06:57:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: strangely... (none / 0)

With the use of larger ships and containerisation, the importance of the [Port of London] declined throughout the second half of the 20th century. As it includes Tilbury, it remains one of the three largest ports in the United Kingdom, in terms of number of containers, after those at Southampton and Felixstowe (the order changes from time to time).
The Port currently handles 50 million tonnes of cargo each year and 12,500 commercial ships, which use 73 operational wharves. This represents around 10% of the UK commercial shipping trade, and contributes over 35,000 jobs and 8.5 billion pounds to the UK's economy.

So the three largest ports in the UK are within 92 miles of the City. It's not that bad.

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 4th, 2007 at 07:04:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: strangely... (none / 1)

This assumes that imported lamb goes straight to London, and not - say - up to the Midlands for further processing and national distribution.

It also assumes that London is the main consumer of lamb - and if NZ lamb is institutional rather than gourmet, it may well not be.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Mon Jun 4th, 2007 at 12:00:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: strangely... (none / 1)

You'll find all the studies here:

http://www.fcrn.org.uk/researchLib/lifecycle.htm

As was discussed on ET, it's just that UK farmers use crazy amount of petroleum derivatives to grow food and meat.

The NZ Lincoln university report:

http://www.lincoln.ac.nz/story_images/2328_foodmiles_s6496.pdf

See table 7.1 page 61

by Laurent GUERBY on Mon Jun 4th, 2007 at 07:00:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: strangely... (none / 1)

As far as lamb production goes, you should know better!

It's not a particularly intensive production, even in the British Isles.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Jun 4th, 2007 at 07:06:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Other data? (none / 0)

Well that's not what the NZ report is saying on the UK way of producing lamb, see table 7.5 page 92.

There's a factor 5 to 10 for nearly all the inputs between NZ and UK on this production.

I've not found anyone contradicting the data in the NZ study, that doesn't mean it's right but I've nothing else for now, do you have any source.

by Laurent GUERBY on Mon Jun 4th, 2007 at 01:51:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: strangely... (4.00 / 2)

Link1 Link2 for those interested.

Certainly some kind of tax could be useful, because there are bound to be some NZ farmers who waste energy and some UK farmers who don't.

As we know from previous discussions, ocean transportation is rather more efficient than road transportation.

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Mon Jun 4th, 2007 at 06:20:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: strangely... (none / 1)

Lamb? Interesting. I'd easily believe it about papaya, but I guess it works for other things as well. (Is all the stuff they planted for LoTR still providing free food?)

(As a side note I'm sure UK land could easily be put to "better" use. Ask a UK farmer up north what they they think about grouse and hunters.)

-----
sapere aude

by Number 6 on Mon Jun 4th, 2007 at 06:58:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

strangely... | 41 comments (41 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

Top Diaries

Rabies Brexplained

Transition In America

I don't like lawyers

The economic realities of a united Ireland

Raising public morale

Europe under Covid-19

The Human Trouble According to James Baldwin

Brexit and Northern Ireland's food supply

Recent Diaries

Rabies Brexplained

I don't like lawyers

Transition In America

The economic realities of a united Ireland

Raising public morale

Europe under Covid-19

The Human Trouble According to James Baldwin

Brexit and Northern Ireland's food supply

The powers of the President of the USA

Georgia on my mind

US Elections Live Blog

Occasional Series