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So many things to react to, I'll make a only a start:

  • Who made them averse to the word tax? You did, dear editorial writer of the The Economist.

  • Cap and trade was sold to us by you and your editorial economist ilk also. Why? Because it formed part of your ideology that markets create inherent efficiencies. How can "easier investment planning" suddenly be more important than "allocative efficiency"? Was the old ideology wrong then?
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Mon Jun 4th, 2007 at 05:49:52 AM EST
The gall of the first point is what left me speechless.

The second one has left me perplexed, becuase I'm not really sure what made them change their mind, and what it really means. The only reason cap-and-trade does not work is because industry lobbied for higher quotas than were compatible with goals of actually bringing pollution down, and because industry was handed out quotas for free instead of being forced to buy them (again, thank to Economist-supported lobbying).

Sigh...

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Mon Jun 4th, 2007 at 06:05:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
One should also expect The Economist to argue that businesses worried about price uncertainty should just hedge with carbon futures.

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 4th, 2007 at 06:10:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Stabilizing effective demand assists business planning ... why, that is an argument that, without ever stating it, the Economist has been campaigning against for decades.

Hypocrite twice over ... I reckon it means that the Economist is confident that serious carbon taxes will remain on the drawing board, while there is actually a threat that serious auctioned permit cap-and-trade could get put into place somewhere.

And then the next step is a carbon offset tariff on nations that are not pursuing effective carbon reduction programs and, shock, horror, we would have the twin evils of an effective government policy and an effective sanction against a global race to the bottom on carbon emissions.


I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Mon Jun 4th, 2007 at 05:15:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yeah, sorry I couldn't come up with a snappy title to encapsulate the first point. It's hard to do more than scream "Hypocrite!" at them.

I'm very confused by the apparent change of mind buried in that second point too.
Ideas:

  1. Cap and trade is becoming discredited in the newspapers (ironically as the system seems to be beginning to stabilise), so they want to avoid being associated with it?

  2. Who loses out under working cap-and-trade?
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Mon Jun 4th, 2007 at 06:25:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Taxes on the carbon content of fuel do not provide an absolute ceiling on emissions. There is no guarantee that they will accomplish a certain reduction. This can be alleviated by periodically increasing the tax, but that provides the same kind of investment insecurity to businesses that a periodically reviewed emissions trading system does.
by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Mon Jun 4th, 2007 at 06:52:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
http://www.interfluidity.com/posts/1180146496.shtml


Would it be possible to design a carbon tax that the public would enthusiastically support? That would be progressive, rather than regressive, imposing greater costs on the rich than the poor? Is it politically possible to strictly limit the total amount of carbon emitted, without rewarding past polluters with windfall emissions permits? Yes, it is. And it's fun! Politicians -- Here's an opportunity to give money to your constituents, and save the world too! It works like this:

First, enact a carbon tax. Nothing fancy here, just your usual I'm-Greg-Mankiw-Wanna-Join-My-Club? "Pigouvian" carbon tax. Embedded in what drivers pay at the pump, added as yet another surcharge to heat and utility bills, would be a new Federal tax on carbon sold or used as fuel. That was easy.

Unfortunately, a carbon tax is regressive. It imposes disproportionate burden on the poor, as the higher cost of driving to work and heating a home takes a much bigger bite out of a burger-flipper's paycheck than a hedge-fund manager's "capital gain".

But, here's a trick. Just as flattish taxes are regressive, flattish subsidies are progressive. So, when we enact the carbon tax, we grant citizens the right to a refund of the tax on a fixed quantity of carbon consumed. We distribute those refunds equally among all taxpaying US citizens annually. And, we permit citizens to sell any refunds they won't need to use.

Suppose, in the beginning, we set the amount of refunds to be equal to the total expected carbon tax, given 2007 US carbon consumption. This seems dumb, right? In the aggregate, we've just created a system whereby the government collects a tax and sends it right back out again, exacting a net cost of zero from the private sector for its profligate use of carbon. All the government has done is caused transfers within the private sector. Yes. But from whom to whom? Light users of carbon end up receiving cash, from the excess permits they sell, while gas-guzzle-monsters pay up! That's likely to mean that most poorer people earn cash from their allotment, paid for by the people whose Hummers they can't see over. Moreover, note that our refunds are distributed only to taxpaying humans, not to businesses, but businesses are still subject to the tax, and can purchase refunds. That means that on net, the government will have underwritten a transfer from businesses to voters households. The vast majority of human beings will see ka-ching positive net wealth from this scheme, without any cost to the government. People who conserve more will earn more, people who conserve less will earn less, or even have to pay. Businesses will buy refunds from households, so long as the cost of the refund is less than the cost of the tax. When there are no more refunds left to buy -- when aggregate carbon consumption exceeds the refund allotted -- some users will have to pay the tax outright, at whatever rate the government has set.
[...]


by Laurent GUERBY on Mon Jun 4th, 2007 at 07:01:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Today I saw news of a report claiming that British lamb is 4-times less energy efficient than NZ lamb, and that therefore it still makes sense environmentally to ship it from there rather than buy local produce. They said the whole impact needed to be assessed, and not just the distance travelled.

My reaction was to think a carbon[-equivalent] tax was the easiest way to take into account the various contributions, but I also immediately though "nah, a tax is politically inviable".

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 4th, 2007 at 06:02:34 AM EST
I'm not convinced by campaigns against very long distance travel. 500km by truck are a lot more damaging than 15,000km in a boat (plane travel for things like strawberries and flowers is obviously something different).

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Mon Jun 4th, 2007 at 06:06:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
One never knows what all these reports are actually counting unless one reads the small print. I think in this case the report was from a NZ university
A survey by scientists at the University of Lincoln in New Zealand, concluded that lamb imported from New Zealand is four times as energy efficient as lamb reared in the UK, even when carbon emissions from the transport process are taken into account.

The study calculated 688kg of CO2 is emitted per tonne of carcass, through the lamb production process in New Zealand, compared to 2,849.1kg in the UK.

Researchers said the style of farming in New Zealand is considered to be less intensive than in Britain because of the large areas of land.

Like I said, the solution would be to tax carbon equivalent everywhere. Like we do with VAT, we could have a "Greenhouse Added Tax".

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 4th, 2007 at 06:14:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
to follow the VAT model, companies should pay CCT on any product they sell, but would get the right to refunds for what they buy - that would help enforcement, like for VAT.

And that would make it easy to impose on imports as well.

Now to define 'carbon content' of a good or service...

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Mon Jun 4th, 2007 at 06:18:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Now to define 'carbon content' of a good or service...

It's not the carbon content of the good or service, but the amount of carbon-equivalent of the greenhouse gases released by the production process. But this would make it tricky to tax automotive fuel for private consumption. But, in the case of final products the consumer can be charged for the expected environmental impact at the time of purchase, not from actual environmental impact at a later date.

Note that generally the 'carbon content' of the inputs is higher than the carbon content of the outputs of a production process, and the difference is released.

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 4th, 2007 at 06:33:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
One could take a sample "good" and incinerate it, and measure the concentration of various greenhouse gases.

For services, the entire carbon content of the inputs is released as the inputs are consumed.

Now I'm thinking that in this model cow farts are a good way to avoid taxation. So if the carbon tax were high enough it would become economically efficient to use animals instead of motor vehicles for agricultural work and local transport. It would be an amusing return of the horse and ox economy.

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 4th, 2007 at 06:43:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Good idea. How about carousel fraud?

(Also see the delightful description in the VAT article of the British judicial system.)

With high-CCT-value items like oil, it seems you could make a fortune through carefully timed bankrupcy.


-----
sapere aude

by Number 6 on Mon Jun 4th, 2007 at 09:11:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This has been brought up here before. I haven't time to go into it in detail, but it sounds self-serving to me. What may be true about it is that NZ lamb is an extensive land-use product. But there is not that much intensive about European lamb production either.

And what is not stated is that NZ lamb, from wool-bearing breeds (Merinos-type) is lower quality than European lamb. Nor that the ship voyage = deep freezing. Generally, this means NZ lamb is used in mass food supply - works canteens, institutional meals, food industry ready-made meals. Few consumers will buy a frozen NZ leg of lamb rather than a fresh European one, despite the price difference.

 

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Jun 4th, 2007 at 06:25:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
So UK lamb and NZ lamb is not substitutes?

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 4th, 2007 at 06:34:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No. Apples and oranges.

NZ has had a quasi-monopoly on low-quality lamb and mutton in the EU since this was negotiated as part of the UK entry package in 1973. The British Isles (that includes the Irish Republic) were pretty much set up as the main higher-quality producers to the EEC (to the immediate detriment of producers elsewhere, France for example). That situation has since settled down somewhat, since there are in fact national and regional tastes to be considered, (comparative advantage doesn't appear to take that into account), such as British lamb being fatter than French taste enjoys, or there being a market for very young lamb in Spain. So national and regional production has gradually built up again.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Jun 4th, 2007 at 07:20:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
NZ has had a quasi-monopoly on low-quality lamb and mutton in the EU since this was negotiated as part of the UK entry package in 1973.

!!!

there are in fact national and regional tastes to be considered, (comparative advantage doesn't appear to take that into account)

Yes, comparative advantage only works for perfectly substitutable products.

What you're describing is monopolictic competicion where producers specialise in slightly different products and either take advantage of consumer preferences or hope for them to develop.

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 4th, 2007 at 07:56:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Interesting stuff, afew.

McMutton, anyone?


-----
sapere aude

by Number 6 on Mon Jun 4th, 2007 at 08:43:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Who will keep the register?
by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Mon Jun 4th, 2007 at 07:38:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't know. Who keeps the VAT register?

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 4th, 2007 at 07:58:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
VAT is the same on each product (or there are up to 3 rates). There is no need for a register of products with the carbon emissions of each.

What I mean is that the management costs of your proposal become prohibitive at some point.

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Mon Jun 4th, 2007 at 08:42:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Doesn't REACH involve a register of products?

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 4th, 2007 at 08:44:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Only of chemicals (and maybe processes, I don't know). Not of products in which chemicals are used.
by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Mon Jun 4th, 2007 at 09:03:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Today I saw news of a report claiming that British lamb is 4-times less energy efficient than NZ lamb, and that therefore it still makes sense environmentally to ship it from there rather than buy local produce.

And then people wonder why I keep saying economics is about analysing the wrong things for the wrong reasons using the wrong tools and coming to the wrong conclusions.

Why is British lamb four times less energy efficient? Does anyone know?

I'm having some difficulty understanding how lamb needs to be energy efficient at all, because I'd guess it spends most of its time running around a field making 'Meh' noises.

Is it the slaughter? The transportation? Freezing? Something else?

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Mon Jun 4th, 2007 at 06:18:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
As I suggest above, I think they make out NZ sheep farming is more extensive, more "free-range", being essentially based, as in Australia, on wool-bearing breeds running on very extensive pasture.

But British or other European lamb is fairly extensive too, a great deal of sheep farming going on in moorland and upland areas that are little suited to anything else. The final phase of fattening is the most intensive. That may give NZ an energy edge, but certainly not a quality edge. It's comparing apples with oranges.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Jun 4th, 2007 at 06:31:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It sounds like total borrocks to me. I might have been persuaded if the subject were beef or pork, but not lamb. After all, lamb may be driven in lorries from darkest Wales to a supermarket depot in SW England for packing before sending out to London, but the NZ lamb faces the same journey from a port.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Jun 4th, 2007 at 06:54:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I was thinking about this this weekend. Before the 1980's London had a major port, but that must obviously gone out of business and nos the Docklands are redeveloped. So, where do the imports come into the UK, and where does London get its supplies?

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 4th, 2007 at 06:57:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
With the use of larger ships and containerisation, the importance of the [Port of London] declined throughout the second half of the 20th century. As it includes Tilbury, it remains one of the three largest ports in the United Kingdom, in terms of number of containers, after those at Southampton and Felixstowe (the order changes from time to time).

The Port currently handles 50 million tonnes of cargo each year and 12,500 commercial ships, which use 73 operational wharves. This represents around 10% of the UK commercial shipping trade, and contributes over 35,000 jobs and 8.5 billion pounds to the UK's economy.

So the three largest ports in the UK are within 92 miles of the City. It's not that bad.

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 4th, 2007 at 07:04:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This assumes that imported lamb goes straight to London, and not - say - up to the Midlands for further processing and national distribution.

It also assumes that London is the main consumer of lamb - and if NZ lamb is institutional rather than gourmet, it may well not be.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Mon Jun 4th, 2007 at 12:00:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You'll find all the studies here:

http://www.fcrn.org.uk/researchLib/lifecycle.htm

As was discussed on ET, it's just that UK farmers use crazy amount of petroleum derivatives to grow food and meat.

The NZ Lincoln university report:

http://www.lincoln.ac.nz/story_images/2328_foodmiles_s6496.pdf

See table 7.1 page 61

by Laurent GUERBY on Mon Jun 4th, 2007 at 07:00:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
As far as lamb production goes, you should know better!

It's not a particularly intensive production, even in the British Isles.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Jun 4th, 2007 at 07:06:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well that's not what the NZ report is saying on the UK way of producing lamb, see table 7.5 page 92.

There's a factor 5 to 10 for nearly all the inputs between NZ and UK on this production.

I've not found anyone contradicting the data in the NZ study, that doesn't mean it's right but I've nothing else for now, do you have any source.

by Laurent GUERBY on Mon Jun 4th, 2007 at 01:51:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Link1 Link2 for those interested.

Certainly some kind of tax could be useful, because there are bound to be some NZ farmers who waste energy and some UK farmers who don't.

As we know from previous discussions, ocean transportation is rather more efficient than road transportation.

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Mon Jun 4th, 2007 at 06:20:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Lamb? Interesting. I'd easily believe it about papaya, but  I guess it works for other things as well. (Is all the stuff they planted for LoTR still providing free food?)

(As a side note I'm sure UK land could easily be put to "better" use. Ask a UK farmer up north what they they think about grouse and hunters.)

-----
sapere aude

by Number 6 on Mon Jun 4th, 2007 at 06:58:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

SVG chairman breaks tax taboo

Nicholas Ferguson, one of the most prominent figures in Europe's private equity industry, has broken the sector's taboo on tax by criticising the fact that top buy-out executives "pay less tax than a cleaning lady."

A number of European countries, including the UK, have capital gains tax rules that allow executives at private equity firms and some hedge funds to enjoy lower tax rates than most other people, often of only 10 per cent.

(...)

"Any common sense person would say that a highly-paid private equity executive paying less tax than a cleaning lady or other low-paid workers, that can't be right," he said. However he warned any policy change should not jeopardise private equity's role in the economy.

The UK Treasury is reviewing its capital gains rules amid union protests over favouritism to private equity. The issue is also attracting scrutiny in the US.

Private equity general partners are paid a base salary but earn most of their money from "carried interest" - typically a 20 per cent share of any profit from selling portfolio companies after a certain threshold. So-called "taper relief" rules allow the tax paid on this income to be reduced from the top capital gains rate of 40 per cent down to 10 per cent as long as the private equity firm holds the company for two years before selling it.



In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Mon Jun 4th, 2007 at 06:25:00 AM EST
http://zisyadis.ch/2007/06/02/impots-degressifs-victoire-contre-le-cannibalisme-fiscal/


 LE TRIBUNAL FÉDÉRAL CASSE LES IMPÔTS DÉGRESSIFS D'OBWALD  [Suisse]
Le Tribunal fédéral (TF) a jugé le 1er juin 2007 des recours déposés et impulsés par notre camarade conseiller national membre du groupe «A Gauche toute!» et du POP/PST contre les impôts dégressifs du Canton d'Obwald qui participent à la spirale infernale de sous-enchère fiscale et de cadeaux aux riches dans ce pays.

Le recours a été admis par le TF à une majorité de 6 juges sur 7, reconnaissant que les impôts dégressifs violent en effet le principes d'une fiscalité selon la capacité contributive de chacun inscrit dans la constitution helvétique !

Le parti radical et l'UDC grincent des dents, le premier vante la concurrence fiscale comme «essentielle à la réussite de la Suisse» et trouve que cette décision sape la position de la suisse «par rapport à la concurrence internationale». Le parti de Blocher annonce qu'il interviendra dès la prochaine session des Chambres fédérales pour faire inscrire le principe de la concurrence fiscale - et des impôts dégressifs? - dans la Constitution.

La coalition A Gauche toute ! (PST-POP, solidaritéS, Listes Alternatives) se félicite évidemment de la décision du Tribunal fédéral, rend hommage à la pugnacité et au courage de Josef Zisyadis en la matière et continuera à s'engager dans le combat contre la politique des caisses vides, de dumping fiscal et de cadeaux aux riches qui sont l'un des ressorts essentiels du démantèlement social, de la précarisation et de l'appauvrissement de large couches de la population.


by Laurent GUERBY on Mon Jun 4th, 2007 at 06:54:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Aversion to tax kills world

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.
by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Mon Jun 4th, 2007 at 06:41:24 AM EST
You cant solve the problems of the environment by thinking you will get cooperation from business without stringent government regulations. The EU is the last best hope for mankind; otherwise these 'business fools' and their facilitators-The Economist will lead us all to our demise. They are the problem and can't be the solution.

Government supported by the people is the only solution. Business still thinks it can be business but if the EU is successful; then the hedgemony of muti national corporations will be balanced out by us. A wonderful prospect but the EU must be strong in its resolve to the US and the other prolific polluters.

by An American in London on Mon Jun 4th, 2007 at 07:01:41 AM EST
This was featured in one of the sunday politics shows here. They admitted that trading is artificial and that can only work if regulated effectively, which hasn't happened so far. Although all claim that it's a learning process.

However, what was interesting that all concerned admitted that an effective taxation system would create more useful results, but couldn't be enforced on the necessary global scale. Whilst apparently people co-operate with markets, or more  realistically regard it as a lesser evil or even as a universal good, even when they accept it won't achieve anything (or because it won't achieve anything).

But it all comes back to the unwillingness of countries to accept that they can can't have economic growth on 20th century principles. As I watched the programme I just wondered how everybody will react when the Grennland Ice sheet collapses and sea levels rise a few metres, or when china's main rivers cease to flow all year round, and yet are so polluted that you cannot drink from them and the hinterland has a chronic problem. Cos nothing is likely to happen until it's too late.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Jun 4th, 2007 at 07:09:03 AM EST
The Businesspeople's politicians are strongly adverse to the businesspeople paying taxes.

"I said, 'Wait a minute, Chester, You know I'm a peaceful man...'" Robbie Robertson
by NearlyNormal on Mon Jun 4th, 2007 at 02:33:29 PM EST

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