Brunsbüttel, Krümmel (German nuclear controversy) | 97 comments (97 topical, editorial, 0 hidden)

Re: Brunsbüttel, Krümmel (German nuclear controver (4.00 / 4)

Already in the nineties, both plants have featured strongly in criticisms of the German nuclear industry, especially for information politics.

Where they owned by Vattenfall back then? Or to rephrase the question, is this a Vattenfall problem or a Brunsbüttel + Krümmel problem?

Because information politics has not really been a strong side for Vattenfall at Forsmark either...

currently the second generation of operators are taking over, people who don't know the nifty details and special troubles of the plants.

This is a problem not only in Germany, but all over the world. But ironically it is especially bad in Germany and Sweden where young and bright people have been deterred from entering the nuclear industry due to the more or less mad machinations of leading politicians.

Now ladies and gentlemen, the mistake of having almost as many plant designs as there are plants (and hence lots of "nifty details and special troubles") won't be made again. As we enter the second part of the atomic age, only about half a dozen standardized reactor designs are bound to be deployed, worldwide.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid on Tue Jul 10th, 2007 at 05:18:57 PM EST

Re: Brunsbüttel, Krümmel (German nuclear controver (4.00 / 3)

Vattenfall took over HEW in 2000. So it was a Vattenfall problem at the time of the 2001 hydrogen incident already.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Tue Jul 10th, 2007 at 06:18:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Brunsbüttel, Krümmel (German nuclear controver (none / 1)

As a Swede I'm appalled at how two-faced Vattenfall is. At home it's all about hydroelectricity, renewable, yada yada. In reality there's increasing amounts of coal in the mix.

(Perhaps someone can explain why "brown coal" is worse than "coal"? Extraction methods?)

It's interesting to listen to the way this company uses the words "Europe" and "European" - in many ways it's similar to the way they are used in the USA when talking about early US history: old-fashioned, bad, unenlightened and certainly not our responsibility.

(Wikipedia links to an article here - in Swedish, sorry - that sadly I don't have time to translate right now.)

by Number 6 on Wed Jul 11th, 2007 at 08:04:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Brunsbüttel, Krümmel (German nuclear controver (4.00 / 3)

Brown Coal (lignite) is the lowest grade of coal. Lower density of carbon in the mix, and more impurities (pollutants) than bituminous coal or than anthracite.

That there is a renaissance of lignite is nothing short of amazing. It's like the tar sands being renamed oil sands.

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jul 11th, 2007 at 08:24:15 AM EST
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Re: Brunsbüttel, Krümmel (German nuclear controver (4.00 / 3)

Nomad might tear his hairs out, but it appears there is a langage difference in terminology here, too. Lignite is the lowest grade of coal in all languages, but while it appears to be synonymous with brown coal in English, it is the youngest, shale-like form of Braunkohle in German -- and a separate, third grade in Hungarian...

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Wed Jul 11th, 2007 at 09:08:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Brunsbüttel, Krümmel (German nuclear controver (4.00 / 2)

Interesting to compare languages by comparing the corresponding the grades and their heat content:

German:

wood: 17-20 MJ/kg
Lignit: 20-25 MJ/kg
'soft' Braunkohle: 25.1-26.8 MJ/kg
'hard' Braunkohle: -28500 kJ/kg
'flame' Steinkohle ( = stone coal): -32.85 MJ/kg
'gas flame' Steinkohle: -33.9 MJ/kg
'gas' Steinkohle: -35.0 MJ/kg
'fat' Steinkohle: -35.4 MJ/kg
'eating' Steinkohle: -35.4 MJ/kg
'lean' Steinkohle: -35.6 MJ/kg
anthracite: -36.0 MJ/kg

English:

lignite/brown coal: 10-20 MJ/kg
sub-bituminous coal: 20-28 MJ/kg (with most sold in the US near the lower limit)
bituminous coal: 24-35 MJ/kg
anthracite: 26-33(?) MJ/kg

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Wed Jul 11th, 2007 at 09:33:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Brunsbüttel, Krümmel (German nuclear controver (4.00 / 2)

So apparently the main the difference is what brown coal refers to. While trawling Wikipedia for the English numbers, I also found that 'stone coal' in English is a less-used synonym for anthracite, "not to be confused with German Steinkohle"... (I'm seeing Nomad balding)

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Wed Jul 11th, 2007 at 09:36:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

And yet (none / 1)

another reason why I don't want to work with coal.

I think that should be my next sig-line.

by Nomad (Bjinse) on Wed Jul 11th, 2007 at 10:43:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Brunsbüttel, Krümmel (German nuclear controver (none / 1)

Lignit: 20-25 MJ/kg

10-25 MJ/kg.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Wed Jul 11th, 2007 at 09:38:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Brunsbüttel, Krümmel (German nuclear controver (4.00 / 3)

Let's see if I understand correctly: we are extracting from the earth something that potentially gives less energy than wood?

by Number 6 on Wed Jul 11th, 2007 at 11:39:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Brunsbüttel, Krümmel (German nuclear controver (4.00 / 4)

Well, tar sands are supposed to have the energy density of potatoes.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid on Wed Jul 11th, 2007 at 12:16:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Brunsbüttel, Krümmel (German nuclear controver (4.00 / 5)

Biofuel!

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jul 11th, 2007 at 12:52:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Brunsbüttel, Krümmel (German nuclear controver (none / 1)

Hey, totally OT, but have you gotten my e-mails? Our system is all berzerk at work and nothing's working properly. Just want to know that you got them (and that I had the right address.)

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.

by poemless on Wed Jul 11th, 2007 at 01:56:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Brunsbüttel, Krümmel (German nuclear controver (none / 0)

Yes, I did get them. Thanks!

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jul 11th, 2007 at 05:30:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Brunsbüttel, Krümmel (German nuclear controver (4.00 / 3)

and killing trees to do it...

The difference between theory and practise in practise ...

by DeAnander (de_at_daclarke_dot_org) on Wed Jul 11th, 2007 at 01:19:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]