Utility.... fetish | 51 comments (51 topical, editorial, 0 hidden)

Social mobility (4.00 / 6)

There was some rumour recently in the Netherlands about this chap who had graduated from his secondary school cum laude. So many nines, so many tens on his final degree (a ten being the highest). What did he want to become?

A bus driver.

When this diary talks about social mobility, the underlying assumption is that people want to go up the social ladders, and not down. Of course going down is generally easier and with less blockades hence we don't talk about it too much.

Not being anymore in the Netherlands I didn't really experience the whole ruckus around the Dutch future-bus driver - but the fact that there was ruckus and I read about it made we wonder. What was so puzzling that someone wanted to become a bus driver? Clearly this guy's talent could be put to work on other places but perhaps he sees no difference in, say, becoming a politician or a bus driver. A politician is supposed to take responsibility of the people of its country; a bus driver takes responsibility of the people inside its bus. Difference in quantity - but different in utility? Both professions are responsible for people. I hope the guy just picked what he thinks makes him happy. Perhaps within 5 years time he's going bonkers behind the steering wheel, but that's then.

But this is how I'd like my society to be: no one should look up estranged that someone wants to climb down.

by Nomad on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 10:08:18 AM EST

Re: Social mobility (4.00 / 6)

That's an interesting point.

My main point is that when we focus on utility, we see poverty as the social problem.

When we focus on status, we see inequality as the social problem.

And when we apply the tenets of democracy and "libery" we get different results.

I don't see anything wrong with this guy who wanted to be a bus driver.

I'll be honest, there are days I wish I had become a carpenter like my father did.

About status, I would say that if we recognize that the problem of class in society is something deeper than income and wealth, we make a giant leap towards creating a society where the principals of equality that we apply to persons as citizens, to person as workers as well.

I intended this to be a rant against inequality, I'm not sure I entirely succeeded.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 01:17:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Social mobility (4.00 / 4)

The thing is - most people could be bus drivers, whereas not everybody can be [insert job which requires complex training or skills, such as doctor]. So it would be better for society that those that can do the rare jobs do these instead of sticking to most substitutable tasks.

Or, to paraphrase Spiderman, "with great capacities comes greater responsibility"

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 05:47:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Social mobility (none / 1)

So it is best for the group to burn out the people with rare skills.

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 06:09:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

you're definitely (4.00 / 3)

stretching my words.

;-)

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 06:14:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: you're definitely (4.00 / 3)

Yes, and you're taking a marketista approach to vocation.

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 06:17:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

yes and no (none / 0)

yes, because it's utility based
no, because it's utility for the group that I look at here

But optimisatin of the use of any resource is not necessarily marketistic. It can also simply be good hygiene.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 06:49:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: yes and no (4.00 / 2)

It's economic, but does the creation of economies that provide the material needs for the sustenance of society by necessity involve utility maximization?

What about ancient economies like the Greek oikos, or the manorial system?

And is utility maxmization fundamentally an emperical matter or a normative matter?

If the latter, are not the illusions of economics to be a natural science rather than social philosophy misguided?

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 06:54:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: yes and no (4.00 / 3)

You're saying people should do what they have a comparative advantage at, for the benefit of society, regardless of their personal preference. Taking this to the extreme you end up with people who are unhappy because they are required to take on more responsibility than they wish to. It is possible for people to feel like they prefer to do something else than that which will give them (and society) the most material wellbeing.

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 06:57:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: yes and no (4.00 / 8)

It seems that we should question the notion put forward by neo-classical economics that more is always better than less, and that without price restraints demand is essentially infinite.

If we look to those countries that have been most successful in creating equality, the Scandanavians, we find that they all possess this cultural concept of lagom, enough, which means that economies exist only to provide enough so that we are comfortable.

It gives real meaning to the question, "Live to work, or work to live?"

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 07:05:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: yes and no (none / 1)

Other absurdities underpinning neoclassical economics are that supply creates its own demand, and that there's no such thing as involuntary unemployment.

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 07:23:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: yes and no (4.00 / 4)

At least the British gave the word two words with which to respond when reality fails to reach the latter day disciples of Smith and Bentham.

Fuck off.

I feel much better now.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 07:31:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You guys are a bit harsh with me (4.00 / 2)

this is also about managing rarity, and husbanding resources properly.

Efficiency is also about avoiding waste, which is a concept that is needed if you take sustainability seriously.

I think that nature is actually a lot more ruthless than any neo-lib when it comes to not wasting resources, or "putting them to use".

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Thu Jul 19th, 2007 at 03:37:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

We're being harsh with what you're saying (4.00 / 2)

That which is not used is not wasted.

People are not (human) resources.

Paraphrasing Kant, the foundation of ethics is that people are ends unto themselves, not means.

Sorry.

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jul 19th, 2007 at 03:43:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Fair enough (4.00 / 2)

In the movie Will Hunting Ben Affleck (the working class guy) tells Matt Damon (his mathematicla genius buddy) that if he still is doing construction work when he is [25 or some other age], he will perosnally kill him, because he owes it to him not to waste his talent like that.

Is that just Hollywood propaganda?

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Thu Jul 19th, 2007 at 05:23:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Fair enough (none / 1)

Matt Damon's character also burns out and destroys his relationship with his girlfriend by the end of the movie. Remove the Hollywood happy ending and it's a pretty depressing movie.

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jul 19th, 2007 at 05:26:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Fair enough (none / 1)

Oh, and the happy ending involves Will refusing lucrative work offers.

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jul 19th, 2007 at 05:29:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: yes and no (4.00 / 2)

Hmm. Another way the word is used is in the sense that you should put your candle under a bushel, if it's a better or brighter candle than your neighbor has.
So the preference where I come from is that everyone is equally poor and equally stupid. Fuck lagom.

(Obviously I'm exaggerating and the use you mention is entirely correct. It's just that the equality comes at a price.)

by Number 6 on Thu Jul 19th, 2007 at 06:28:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Lagom (4.00 / 3)

The globe can't sustain 6 billion people living a 'First World' lifestyle. The globe can't sustain the people currently living a 'First World' lifestyle living a 'First World' lifestyle. We need to greatly expand the available resources, especially power, see that some form of lagom becomes culturally operative, or a whole lot people will die over the next century.

Note: the OR is Inclusive.

"Equality comes at a price." True and I do not disagree. I submit rampant individualism also comes at a price. Sweden, if I may, is the poster child for the Price of Equality while the US is the shining example of the Price of Rampant Individualism. Having had my fill of the latter I wouldn't mind, at all, a goodly dollop of the former. Given what you, and others, have posted it is apparent Your Mileage most certainly Does Vary. Once again, I do not take issue with that. I would maintain there is much to admire in the 'Scandinavian Model' but neither do I have any illusions about it. As much as I detest the 'US Model' I still recognize there are good things about it as well.

Over the next 50 years, or so, tho' I fully expect these two systems to be challenged. I further expect the 'Swedish Model' to be the superior system and the basis of that superiority is lagom. What I don't expect is innovative methods for dealing with the challenges to come from a Swedish Model but I do expect them from the US Model.

But the general level of pain and suffering will be greater under the US Model.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Sat Jul 21st, 2007 at 02:31:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Lagom (4.00 / 3)

It's the right combination of Equality and Equity that is needed to arrive at an optimal form of "Cooperative Individualism".

And I agree that the solution lies nearer the "Swedish" model than the US one.

"The future is already here -- it's just not very evenly distributed" William Gibson

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Sat Jul 21st, 2007 at 06:37:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Social mobility (4.00 / 5)

Sounds like Spiderman was quoting the New Testament

For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required.

Luke 12:48

"Remember the I35W bridge--who needs terrorists when there are Republicans"

by techno (reply@elegant-technology.com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 08:57:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Social mobility (none / 0)

With great power comes great responsibility, etc.

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jul 19th, 2007 at 03:47:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Utility.... fetish | 51 comments (51 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

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