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One of the advantages of ALBA over ALCA is that alca means nothing and alba means dawn. THe dawn of a new Bolivarian America, and all that. It's rather clever.

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jul 17th, 2007 at 06:38:55 PM EST
Doesn't alca mean a sort of penguin?

I agree that alba is a clever name.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Tue Jul 17th, 2007 at 07:27:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
By Jove, you're right!


Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 04:05:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There is no inherent superiority in laissez faire economies.  On the contrary, the economies that have been most successful in recent history have been dirigiste economies wherein the state has played a leading role (although not necessarily through state-run enterprises).  To avoid steering the discussion in too theoretical a direction, I think that Venezuela's future hinges on what the state does with the surplus that it generates from those pricy oil exports.  As I mentioned here, if it doesn't invest or direct private investment toward broadening the economic base and focuses too much on recurrent expenditures, it will not prosper in the long run.  So my answer is that ALBA can be prosperous if the proper capital investments are made (including human capital).

"Beware of the man who does not talk, and the dog that does not bark." Cheyenne
by maracatu on Tue Jul 17th, 2007 at 07:57:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The subtext is possibly whether Chavez is going to follow old-style socialism, where money may be redistributed but power certainly isn't, or new style socialism, where both are redistributed.

Socialism's downfall has always been monolithic top-down statism, and centralised power (hint...) generation has always been a part of that.

Moving money around isn't enough unless you also change the politcal structures associated with it. Putting new people into the same old structures isn't enough.

With sustainables, redistribution of power has the potential to become not just physical, but metaphorical and political too.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Jul 17th, 2007 at 08:25:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Suppose you have a large rural agricultural sector that demands agrarian reform in the manner of the best agricultural lands being subdivided into small plots and distributed to the peasantry.  You end up forgoing the bountiful production you could have obtained from economies of scale and possibly bring a famine upon the population.  That is part of the reason Haiti is so poor (and its land so unproductive) today.

"Beware of the man who does not talk, and the dog that does not bark." Cheyenne
by maracatu on Tue Jul 17th, 2007 at 09:17:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Refer to Another Urban Legend Bites the Dust by DeAnander on July 16th, 2007

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 02:47:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't see how the question of "scale" relates to this.

"Beware of the man who does not talk, and the dog that does not bark." Cheyenne
by maracatu on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 01:40:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No you don't, because the profit from that production wouldn't be shared with the peasants anyway - unless the government steps in with socialist redistribution policies.

And the real reason Haiti is poor is because of an international aid embargo followed by a somewhat inconvenient invasion.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 08:36:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And before that Haiti was ruled by "Papa Doc" and "Baby Doc" Duvalier for 30 years.

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 09:00:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
While I am restricted to on-line sources to prove my point (which aren't the best), this is common knowledge to the point that it is written into the history books (In fact, Aristide himself will tell you what I am telling you).  Nevertheless, here is one source:

About 70 percent of the agricultural land is hilly, and the average agricultural plot is only a little more than an acre. The plots worked by the poorest peasants are even smaller, of course. There are also some commercial farms that produce for export. Because of the poor soil and the smallness of most of the plots, productivity on the land is very low. As a consequence, the rural population, which is about two thirds of the total, produces only about a third of gross domestic product. The main crop is coffee, much of which is exported.

The subdivision of the land into small plots took place early in the nineteenth century. After the death in 1806 of Dessalines--the second of the two great leaders of the Haitian Revolution, the first being Toussaint L'Ouverture--his two principal generals Petion and Christophe established kingdoms in the South and North respectively. Petion immediately parceled out much of the land of his kingdom to his troops. Christophe at first kept his land together and instituted a highly productive plantation agriculture with a form of forced labor not far removed from slavery. But before he died he succumbed to the unrest of the peasants and subdivided the land in the North as well.

As long as the population was relatively small, there was great poverty in Haiti but not the ecological crisis that has come to maturity in the years since the Second World War. It is evident that if the rural economy is to survive, at the very least there needs to be both a system of catchments, reservoirs, and irrigation conduits and an extensive program of reforestation. But the peasants need also to withdraw land from regular cultivation so as take measures to restore its fertility. If the rural areas were organized collectively, some of what is necessary could be carried out by the collectives, but the predominance of small tenant plots and individual responsibility makes such organization impossible on the scale that is needed for survival.

Here is another source.

"Beware of the man who does not talk, and the dog that does not bark." Cheyenne

by maracatu on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 01:50:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I said part of the reason that Haiti is poor. While I am not denying your statement, I have to reiterate my statement because I know Haiti well.  It is common knowledge (any Haitian will tell you this) that the subdivision (by Petion) of the large estates into small plots of land for redistribution to the peasantry is at the root of Haiti's soil erosion problem.  I have to run, but give me time and I will provide you with unimpeachable sources on this (if you doubt me).

"Beware of the man who does not talk, and the dog that does not bark." Cheyenne
by maracatu on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 12:28:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
unless the government steps in with socialist redistribution policies.


"Beware of the man who does not talk, and the dog that does not bark." Cheyenne
by maracatu on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 01:52:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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