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No, no, I don't read it like that at all. What I believe he's saying is that, while we can never expect the same level of megaphone coverage as the neo-liberals recieve, the evidence of their own eyes will increasingly encourage the general public to become favourably inclined to our alternative message of criticism.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Aug 28th, 2007 at 09:20:46 AM EST
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This deserves a diary.

I think we're maybe a couple of years away from a potential shift which could discredit neoliberalism and market nonsense for generations, if not permanently.

But there have to be plans in place to capitalise on that shift and make sure the message sticks.

Part of the answer is getting traction and flipping the media pyramid so that information comes from the bottom up instead of being distributed top down.

That's becoming easier to do than it's ever been before, and it's going to get easier still over the next few years.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Aug 28th, 2007 at 11:07:11 AM EST
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Make it a diary.

I actually suspect the process is already fermenting to a certain degree within the Netherlands - the left is winning. But it is also losing. The evidence of a failing neoliberal policy is also beginning to show the other side of the coin: rampant nationalism and xenophobia. In other words: blame the funny looking ones.

As has been noticed various times: the centre is dying in Europe and the masses split in half. In Netherlands this is no exception: one part moves to the left (the rise of the Socialist Party in the Netherlands is the example) and one part to the right.

Socialist Party definitely moves the overton window back to the left. But then there is the other side: Geert Wilders and its lot who, by replacing the now practically abolished Pim Fortuyn party, actually moved further to the right. Their message is populist and thrives on xenophobia and, like the Socialist Party, targets the common man. However, the program actually exacerbates the neoliberal frame - but that's okay as long as we get rid of those pesky foreigners. As the press is now openly printing Wilder's frothing ravings, Jerome's point also comes into play.

by Nomad on Tue Aug 28th, 2007 at 11:48:53 AM EST
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Well, when I complain that the formal left only has  stale and discredited marxism to offer people get huffy and get all sixth-form politico dialectic theory on me.

I want to propose a new left concensus around co-operatives and the creation of specifically non-authoritarian democratic institutions, but I simply don't have the socio-political or philosophical background to do it. I can put up bullet points and ideas, but creating a newly minted ideology is beyond me I'm afraid.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Aug 28th, 2007 at 12:01:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, your blanket dismissal of Marx  is a bit  - though I'm with you on the whole dialectics thing.

A new ideology? Do we need one past simply rebalancing things? The problem, really, is that we've let the system get out of balance in several ways. We need to fix that.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Aug 28th, 2007 at 12:11:28 PM EST
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Marxism is simply command capitalism, state dictatorship. There is no liberal freedom. Sorry, but if anyone can point to a single marxist based society that didn't descend into authoritarianism within a few weeks of establishment I must have missed it.

I'm not the sort of person who can survive a conformist society, if there's no space at the edges I don't want your future in my backyard. And the argument last night about gay people in cuba was ridiculous, of course ALL communist societies regard gays as degenerate. Any society that idealises the people whilst treating the individuals like shit cannot bear to have its iconography mocked. It's only societies that allege to be free that have to face their hypocrisy.


keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Aug 28th, 2007 at 12:33:18 PM EST
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Which is all only part of Marx's work: his solutions are just as silly as any of the other people who think that they can come up with a "solution" to the problems of the work. His identification of the problem was pretty interesting though.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Aug 28th, 2007 at 12:38:20 PM EST
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The concepts I found most interesting - apart form "Surplus Value" - were his early conclusions in relation to "alienation" and the "Abolition of Labour" and the "Abolition of Property".

But his theoretical solutions were IMHO never based upon correct assumptions in relation to Reality, and via the wonders of Dialectics, he flew, like the Oozlum Bird, in ever decreasing circles until he disappeared where the Sun does not shine.

"The future is already here -- it's just not very evenly distributed" William Gibson

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Tue Aug 28th, 2007 at 12:54:44 PM EST
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I can't beat dialectics into a shape that will fit into mind: it keeps rejecting it with a "you can't be serious" error.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Aug 28th, 2007 at 12:57:16 PM EST
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Double movement. Polanyi.

The thing about this is that if the politcal system can achieve this end, you can have evolution rather than revolution.

All people want meaning in their life.  You either find that in building yourself up, or tearing others down. If you can't find a sense of self worth through work and raising your family up in relative equality, maybe you turn to race and religion, and a clash of cultures.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Tue Aug 28th, 2007 at 02:50:03 PM EST
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