To Taser or Not to Taser? | 43 comments (43 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

Re: To Taser or Not to Taser? (4.00 / 4)

I agree that non-violent interference would and should have been the de-escalator. I have to say, though, that all the kids shooting this on their phones and then putting it on the web have done us a service. There's a link at the beginning of the diary to another tasering incident, but as there's no video evidence, it all breaks down into "he said/she said."

Which makes me wonder now whether the next stage will be: "No phones in the hall"--the way they take your camera if you're taking pictures near a military establishment. I don't know anything about these phones, but are some capable of real-time imaging? I mean, you don't have to save the film and then transmit, but you can leave the line open and film and send in real-time.

I think A Swedish Kind of Death is far ahead of me on this (but hey, I only got my computer on Friday and I still haven't moved over to kubuntu [if it works, I'll diary how I did it]); the impact technology is having on the wily young, how the networks--and this is happening at ET--are not only "words on a screen" but also social contacts, an interflowing, where people (I'm thinking US students here) can watch the videos (a solitary pursuit), and then they'll be onto their contacts, both physical and networked (from friends in other towns to friends they just ain't met yet--nomad!), but...

...but as there will be physical confrontations, and as there will be attempts at illegal action by those who are paid to uphold the law (taking advantage of the individual's lack of knowledge of their rights)...

I'm gonnae have to look into the UK Pirate Party. But first I'm gonnae need to get a tad more tech. savvy, get down with the young folks.

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Thu Sep 20th, 2007 at 09:52:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: To Taser or Not to Taser? (4.00 / 3)

Already in the UK we have CCTV systems being "down for maintenance" during large scale protests, if this becomes commonplace, could the mobile phone system suffer from similar gliches?

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Thu Sep 20th, 2007 at 10:04:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: To Taser or Not to Taser? (4.00 / 2)

I don't know enough about these wireless networks that individuals can set up, but I imagine for some quids and with a bit of knowhow (and I always have found people who know A LOT about computers who tend to be anti-authoritarian--it's a club, and you can only join if you ask the right questions [c.f. spybot--Search & Destroy, offered to me by one of the many who know about computers here at ET--thanks TBG!])...sorta like walking out of "Windows world"--and everything is...different.

I have this sense that we're right in the middle (or at the beginning) of an evolutionary step, where the "bad people" have their hands on the old levers, cos they have the time, the inclination, and the narrow focus, they have accumulated enough money to win all their fights, sooner or later--money as a magnet--like gravity, it's cumulative--sucks people and objects in.

"fighting this war as if it were the last war"--where "this war" is a war on...greed and selfishness, I think. So generosity--the sharing of what we have, including our abilities to protect each other...ach...I've typed lossa words but feel very...mucho difficulty in my expression of ideas.

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Thu Sep 20th, 2007 at 10:23:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: To Taser or Not to Taser? (4.00 / 4)

I've seen reports of mobile phone jammers being used in Iraq to prevent the triggering of IED's, it may be that the police will deploy these around protests for 'Public Safety'. As a backup there are many cities now with wireless open-air networks. Setting up a wireless network is reasonably easy, however you would need a point to connect it into the rest of the worldwide network, that would be the more complex part.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Thu Sep 20th, 2007 at 10:35:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: To Taser or Not to Taser? (4.00 / 3)

thinking further on this, there would probably be a use for a reference somewhere as to how to make a piece of video film so that it was usable as evidence in court.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Thu Sep 20th, 2007 at 10:40:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: To Taser or Not to Taser? (4.00 / 2)

If you can find one, I think it would be a useful piece of information to have on public view.

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Thu Sep 20th, 2007 at 07:24:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: To Taser or Not to Taser? (4.00 / 2)

though I immediately think: each jurisdiction would be different. But okay, let's emulate Spybot: have the rules for as many jurisdictions as possible available here at ET. For any budding video types, here are the laws, here's what you can and can't do: written down.

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Thu Sep 20th, 2007 at 07:26:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: To Taser or Not to Taser? (4.00 / 4)

I think it is pretty common that mobile phone systems go down or work poorly during large scale protests. But also during music festivals. So I think the mayor part of phone services going down is lack of overcapacity, when you collect lots more people in an area then the mobile phone system is designed for.

That does not stop your mobile phone from working as a recorder however, and you can after leaving the affected area send the film.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Thu Sep 20th, 2007 at 10:52:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: To Taser or Not to Taser? (4.00 / 4)

The first thing I see when they're setting up for concerts (normally sponsored by mobile phone companies) in the Phoenix Park is the installation of auxiliary phone masts.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Sep 20th, 2007 at 11:00:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: To Taser or Not to Taser? (4.00 / 3)

So we should have sponsored protests?

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Thu Sep 20th, 2007 at 11:16:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: To Taser or Not to Taser? (4.00 / 2)

That might do it!

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Sep 20th, 2007 at 11:20:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: To Taser or Not to Taser? (4.00 / 3)

We could have protests that look as if they're sponsored.

This idea is wriggling in an interesting way. I like it.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu Sep 20th, 2007 at 08:58:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: To Taser or Not to Taser? (4.00 / 5)

Short of confiscating phones - which won't work well, because I think most people would rather leave a venue than hand their phone over to the police - there's nothing that can be done to prevent people in a protest making and uploading a huge number of different video recordings of the event.

This is more or less the only practical oversight available to us, and it has the potential to be very powerful. We've already seen it having an effect.

What needs to happen is that alternative/protest/citizen media need to go mainstream, with an editorial layer.

Some of that is framing, some of it is presentation, some of it is money.

The problem with YouTube and LiveLeak is that there's no context, so there's no narrative. You watch someone getting tasered, you watch an IED explosion, you watch some freak weather, you watch someone doing BMX stunts, you watch some cats being stupid, you watch someone getting tasered...

Editorial gets a bad rap from the citizen journalism movement, but it's exactly what's needed to merge hundreds of different clips into a social and political pressure point.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu Sep 20th, 2007 at 11:00:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: To Taser or Not to Taser? (4.00 / 2)

I think that's (one of) the role(s) that ET is developing into. (Did anyone say ET LLP? Cough cough cough!)

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Thu Sep 20th, 2007 at 12:03:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: To Taser or Not to Taser? (4.00 / 3)

apparently its easy (-:

Need to set up mime types on a web server or a specialised media server.
Then point real player or wap broswer to a load page to stream. It may be the network operator will block streaming. In this case you have to download the video stream locally first.
Steve

from here

you would need 3G though.

baically what I did was google
"live streaming video phone"

and aparently it has been used even by fox, so it cannot be that difficult.
http://www.bizreport.com/2006/10/fox_used_streaming_video_on_cell_phone_to_break_ny_plane_crash_news .html

by PeWi on Thu Sep 20th, 2007 at 10:43:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: To Taser or Not to Taser? (4.00 / 4)

If you have two new phones you can have video and sound in a conversation these days. Not much used as it is new and a bit expensive, so there is no problems in using it real-time.

If you want a simple rig for a better quality live-feed, a handheld digital camera (with video function), a small laptop with a card for wireless network (preferably in a backpack) and access to a wireless net is what I would go for. That is more citizen journalist equipment, more to be used if you have time to prepare before the event. It can then be wired continuasly to a webpage or a third person who can edit it if necessary.

The PP UK looks like it has some problems setting sails. I do not have the specifics, but generally the pirate parties has lots of tech-savvy people. What is primarily needed is organisation-savvy people. So do join and you will find you have lots of help with kubuntu if you need it. :-)

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Thu Sep 20th, 2007 at 11:12:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: To Taser or Not to Taser? (4.00 / 2)

Hey, I clicked on the link, click click, and came across this...

http://www.p2punite.org/?q=node/1

So--okay, off I go--I anticipate huge gains for the greens, because I've always been a bit of a 20% person, you know: 20% roughly get it like I do, and so I'm in a minority. So:

Conservative?

Labour!

Labour?

Lib Dems! (I'm thinking England--(:

(That's me trying out one of those new smileys (o"

So now, if I go Pirate...but hold on...

Lib Dems?

Greens!

Greens?

Pirate Party!

The range is so wide, it's hard to know where to start, and is a party even necessary?

A party is always necessary! There should be a party every two weeks, and it should be called "You Survived The Last Two Weeks, Yay!" party, but not everyone is invited....

heh heh hay!

They're invited if they can find an invitation.

I think your approach (and your successes) re: file sharing are completely avant garde, fighting real fights in real time, to everyone's benefit (those who lose are those who can afford--and how--to lose a bit...maybe that's my fantasy)...

But...I'm not a techie, though I think you're great (here I only include the techies with the beating hearts...cough cough! I mean, if you know that thirty thousand euros [give or take the monetary imabalances in your various economies] is better than fifteen thousand euros; and if you know that fifty thousand euros is...twenty thousand euros-worth of a world resource...

Yoink!

I think that for me to join the Pirates is for the pirates to be very generous with their time and their brain power, and so far (Firefox Thunderbird Google Spybot Open Office)

Okay, a serious question.

I see google everywhere in these free applications. No money down, no money later, but a subtle sign saying, "Google"

I've convinced myself that Google finance wikipedia and their cahootsiness is why you can type in about any noun ("mountain" "iron" "Iraq" "Money" "Sex" "Seed") and the first (or second or third) page is...the wikipedia article.

I'm sure that can't be because it's the most wanted or the most linked, but it might be because it's the most read...but that's because it comes up first.

So...I'm an ignoramus. Is Google (Evil! They made their deal with China) doing good things? Is there a plan, or is it...give it away, make sure it's good, watch the positive energy flow...?

Ach aye!

Splice the main brace!

Too strange...for words...

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Thu Sep 20th, 2007 at 07:19:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: To Taser or Not to Taser? (4.00 / 2)

Google is much cleverer than the pirates are. The GooglePlan seems to be to create a range of irresistible applications that people can't live without.

This is unlikely the Microsoft approach, which is based on producing barely functional products from a position of aggressive contempt for the customer base, and throwing marketing at them until they stick to the wall.

But anyway.

Google is taking the long view. Google apps are just starting their play for world domination. Five years from now they'll be more obvious. Ten years from now they'll be more obvious still - while Microsoft will be struggling. Fifteen years from, if there's still an Internet, people will be running live Google apps on the distributed GoogleGrid.

The Pirates just want stuff for free because they want it. They don't really contribute anything. Are they responsible for Firefox and the rest? Not really, no.

Which is better? Neither. What the world needs is file sharing with micropayments. Download, pay a tiny sum. Cut out the record companies, and support creative artists directly.

Will that happen? No. Because rewarding creative effort isn't something the pirates are interested in. Artists are supposed to be flattered that they have been deemed worthy of dowload and iPodification. Having to eat - not so important.

So the pirates are more interested in appearing to be rebels for the sake of it.

Only - you know - downloading MP3s really isn't the last word in social dissent, exactly.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu Sep 20th, 2007 at 09:13:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: To Taser or Not to Taser? (none / 1)

I have a theory....

that there will always be someone who will do music/painting/photography/any other art you can think of
for no money.

How many photo books will remain unread because we have the weekly ET photo round up?

How many potential photo artists here will be unfairly removed from a potential cash source because someone redirects here for people to view their photos for free?

I think the money to be made from the arts will be made by artists. Those who aspire can struggle, but an artist is like the guy who walks tightropes between tall buildings illegally

I can download the entire works of Billy Holiday and a thousand other artists. Why should I care if a person thinks they have a great hit on their hands?

An artist has (I think) a need to produce their art--I mean, they have an urge to produce art...and value is in the eyes ears taste buds skin and nose of the beholder, and artists are those who can get food--or maybe not....because art isn't a job, where you pick up a salary.

The craft may take time to learn, and applying the craft is maybe a worthily paid profession. But Ry Cooder knew he was going to make his money from music by the age of fourteen.

So I think: make the best music you can; offer it out. Play live--meet the public, whether by radio, or MP3s on the web, get it out there, and hocus pocus, like Firefox (have you ever paid them money? Does the app work?)

Okay: I think the danger with micro payments as obligatory (whether legal or moral) is that the idea of deserved payment is the antithesis of the fee gig, the bring-a-bottle party (both of which do at least one person out of potential booty)...

Session musicians are right to have a union and charge union wages: they sell a skill. Ditto mixers, recorders, videographers, sales people...

Ya know, I've always enjoyed Tom Waits, and I like it that he left Island to join a small label because (and maybe I paraphrase) "I liked their attitude."

Or: is the music supposed to have some musical effect, or is all the hard work supposed to be repaid in money? When the police threw Fela Kuti's mother out of the first floor window of his compound...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fela_Kuti

...ya know, if the only money accrues to artists from countries in the lower half of the 177 classification, will art have suffered?

Ach aye!

Would ET musicians be happy to produce an album of music for the listening pleasure of ETers without asking for cash?

And would they still be happy if the album became the most downloaded album in history?

I mean, if you can eat yesterday, today, and tomorrow, and if you get sick you can quickly see someone who can help you then you may well be better off than most...

I simply don't think it is fair to say the creators of Open Office, Spybot, and the like don't contribute...you were the one who put me onto Spybot--Free! £0!!!

Isn't free software as unfair to the programmers as free music is to musicians? But I LOVE free software--I get where I want to go without having to schlep at some pointless task. Shouldn't it be the same with music?

And for the musicians who can't create without being "full time", there have always been avenues...there are worlds where music is breakfast, lunch, and dinner--I have a friend who has harboured his dream of leading his group to victory since he was fourteen! He is now a DJ in Oslo (and very happy, thank you very much)...coz music was his passion, not just his own but that of others...

Och aye!

I see no reason why one can't make great music and be a road sweeper, and I see no reason why a road sweeper should earn any less (or more) than anyone else.

Also (as if I hadn't banged on enough!), I see a clear difference between learning, say, the bassoon, where the time is long and the concerts are rare, and learning "popular music", where the notes are basically tonal and the riffs are mostly in four beat. Folk music should earn its money from the folk...and it seem s live gigs are the way forward, with maybe some music sales possibilities...sorta like the freeware--for those who...

ach, maybe I mean: If us liberals aren't willing to cough up when we have the cash (I mean: donate to Open Source projects), then we are part of the other system....

Heh heh!

I think you should write a diary about the music aspect. You have strong feelings about it, and experience, and I think it would be good to see your aspect laid out as you wish and...yes!..at length, with all the context you want...ya know...I sorta know where you're coming from, but where I live there are a lot of musicians who distinguish between

being paid for performing music

and

making music they enjoy playing/listening to

...to be a good pianist you need maybe two to three hours practice A DAY...for at least two or three days a week. Most of the jazzers teach by day. I don't think they'd turn into Charles Mingus if they didn't have to teach...

And Charles Mingus was a pimp, among other things.

peer to peer--the pirate model is, I think, the future. FREE ACCESS TO CULTURE! ALL OF IT!

Wouldn't that be great if you had no money?

The whole "you could afford it but you won't pay" aspect is a separate cultural issue, I think, and really: when we're all happy to pay the real price--when we insist on paying the real price for our lifestyles from morning to evening...the world will change...cough cough!

Och, I sorta see where you're coming from, but I think there are nuances and it I think it would be useful to see them laid out as you wish, extrapolated, coz I think there are undercurrents I'm missing (but I also have alternative roots in mind, 'twould be interesting to compare and contrast)...so...my lord, quarter to three!

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Thu Sep 20th, 2007 at 09:45:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: To Taser or Not to Taser? (4.00 / 3)

How many photo books will remain unread because we have the weekly ET photo round up?

None, at a guess.

Not really comparable though.

We have a fair use rule for how we use quotes here. Why does the same not apply to music?

Why do we never say 'Hey, I read this book - it was interesting - so I scanned it and uploaded it to bit torrent'?

What makes music different?

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Fri Sep 21st, 2007 at 04:10:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: To Taser or Not to Taser? (4.00 / 5)

Why do we never say 'Hey, I read this book - it was interesting - so I scanned it and uploaded it to bit torrent'?
What makes music different?

Because a music clip lasts 3 minutes but the book takes 3 hours or 3 days or 3 weeks to read.

And because we don't have the tools to copy and splice video and audio files like we do have a keyboard and cut-and-paste. Not everyone has a scanner, and scanning a book is a lot of work anyway. Everyone has a CD player on their computer, and software to rip it and convert it.

If people don't have to scan the book but actually have the audiobook or a PDF e-book they are more likely to just upload it to a bit torrent.

So it is not the same, not by a long shot.

Oye, vatos, dees English sink todos mi ships, chinga sus madres, so escuche: el fleet es ahora refloated, OK? — The War Nerd

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Sep 25th, 2007 at 02:07:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: To Taser or Not to Taser? (4.00 / 2)

That doesn't apply to 'fair use' of articles that could be copied in their entirety from a web site.

You're also confusing the cost required to copy something with the value of the content, and saying - in effect - that just because something is hard to copy, it becomes more valuable.

Oddly enough, this is exactly the argument used by the RIAA and others to support DRM.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Sep 25th, 2007 at 06:09:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: To Taser or Not to Taser? (4.00 / 2)

What I'm saying is it's much easier to do "fair use" with text than with other media. DRM doesn't enable fair use anyway.

Oye, vatos, dees English sink todos mi ships, chinga sus madres, so escuche: el fleet es ahora refloated, OK? — The War Nerd

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Sep 25th, 2007 at 06:18:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: To Taser or Not to Taser? (4.00 / 2)

Well, there's plenty of books on P2P. Any of the great SF writers - possibly because that's what the "scanning community" likes to read - but also the major bestsellers. Harry Potter 7 was on Usenet within hours of the US release.

The difference is that unlike music the default format ("hardcopy") requires more work to convert to a "sharable" format.

by Number 6 on Tue Sep 25th, 2007 at 08:31:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: To Taser or Not to Taser? (none / 1)

OK, Migeru already said this. Sorry.

by Number 6 on Tue Sep 25th, 2007 at 08:32:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

To Taser or Not to Taser? | 43 comments (43 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

Top Diaries

Ukraine: Allies Waving the White Flag

by Oui - Dec 5
6 comments

Energy (and Other) Events Monthly - December 2023

by gmoke - Nov 28

Top Diaries

Ukraine: Allies Waving the White Flag

Energy (and Other) Events Monthly - December 2023

Recent Diaries

VDL Hard Lessons Human Rights Law

Boris Johnson 'Bamboozled' by Scientific Data

Ukraine: Allies Waving the White Flag

Stoltenberg: A Big Win for Ukraine

Mark Rutte: Using the Nation to Become Secretary General

December 2023

Netanyahu Tells Biden Fu*k Off

Keeping Up with COP28

A Sort-a Truce Extended 24 Hours

Energy (and Other) Events Monthly - December 2023

NeXiT the Trump Era of Dutch PM Wilders

Erasure of Palestinians the Zionist Dream

21st Century Pax Americana and Violence

Dublin Far Right Riots After Knife Attack

Clean Break From Peace to War

Woodrow Wilson's Collapse and the Peace Movement

A Children's Sing-Along Annihilate Everyone In Gaza

Xi - Joe Launch a New Communication Probe

The Israeli War Hoax of 40 Beheaded Babies

If Palestinians Are 'Animals'? What Are the Israelis?

Occasional Series