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It's not so much LLP's coming in optimal size as Communities being of an optimal size. Especially a "Community of Interest" like this one.

The LLP merely offers an infinitely flexible "Open" corporate framework shaped by a consensually agreed common purpose and principles of governance.

Plus, of course, the "semi-permeable membrane" of limited liability, that hopefully would serve to protect Jerome and co-conspirators from legal action by aggrieved Russian billionaires or retired Central Bankers...

"The future is already here -- it's just not very evenly distributed" William Gibson

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Mon Sep 24th, 2007 at 07:35:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The LLP merely offers an infinitely flexible "Open" corporate framework shaped by a consensually agreed common purpose and principles of governance.

Okay, it's a tool, but what I'm thinking is: the way for most people to these new realities will be via

Do something -- receive credits -- eat, drink, be merry, heat the house, clean water on tap etc.

If the starting point is "have basic asset of value to others (e.g a house)", then I'll have to wait until I have said asset of value and then ponder (from my position of wealth) whether the LLP suits my financial needs.

But I thought you wuz talking about something wider than that, a new community relationship, and I'm wondering (maybe erroneously) how big or small the community needs to be before all the various assets (in themselves maybe not valued in the "work for money" system) combine to bring mysterious value...

And I'm thinking:

If I could walk into a community and say, "How does one  live here?"

And a person from the community said, "Can you see any useful tasks that need doing?"

And I say: "Do you have a radio station?"

And they say, "Yes.  Have you anything to offer them?"

And I say: "Yes!  I have an old mic in my bag"

where the search is for the skill that can be offered to the community

in return for community credits (food, shelter, etc.)

and for those who have nothing at present that the community can use, there will be assistance

and an in-pouring of poor and needy people--if the laws are tolerant...

heh heh!  I mean, I'm thinking of the structure of "post capitalist" social systems (kcurie!), wondering how easy we can make the transition, and how many of us can transition now, as krishnamurti had it.

K: That's why you see, sir, we have divided the physical world as the East and the West. We have divided religions, Christian religion and Hindu, Muslim, Buddhist. And we have divided the world into nationalities; the capitalist and the socialist, the communist and the other people and so on. We have divided the world, and we have divided ourselves as Christians, non-Christians, we have divided ourselves into fragments, opposing each other, so, where there is a division there is conflict.

A: Precisely.

K: I think that is a basic law.

A: Where there is a division there is conflict. But in terms of that word 'knowledge' it appears that people believe to start with that that division is there, and they operate on that radical belief.

K: That's why I am saying it's so important to understand from the beginning in our talk, in our dialogue, that the world is not different from me and that I am the world. It may sound rather, very simplified, simplistic, but it has got very deep fundamental meaning if you realise what it means, not intellectually, but inwardly, the understanding of it, therefore there is no division. The moment I say to myself, and I realise that I am the world and the world is me, I am not a Christian, nor a Hindu, nor a Buddhist - nothing, I am a human being.

A: I was just thinking when you were saying how certain kinds of philosophical analysis would approach that, and in terms of the spirit of what you have said, this really is almost a cosmic joke because on the one hand as you said, it might sound simplistic. Some would say it is, therefore we don't have to pay attention to it; others would say, well, it's probably so much in want of clarity even though it's profound that it is some kind of mysticism. And we are back and forth, with the division again, as soon as that happens.

K: I know, I have been...

A: So I do follow you.

K: So, if that is clear that human mind has divided the world in order to find its own security, which brings about its own insecurity, when one is aware of that then one must inwardly as well as outwardly deny this division, as we and they, I and you, the Indian and the European and the Communist. You cut at the very root of this division. Therefore from that arises the question, can the human mind which has been so conditioned for millennia, can that human mind which has acquired so much knowledge in so many directions, can that human mind change, bring about a regeneration in itself and be free to reincarnate now?

A: Now?

K: Now.

A: Yes.

K: That is the question.

http://www.jkrishnamurti.org/talks_dialogues/Krishnamurti_Anderson_1974_Dialogue1_stream



Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.
by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Mon Sep 24th, 2007 at 07:53:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
 But I thought you wuz talking about something wider than that, a new community relationship, and I'm wondering (maybe erroneously) how big or small the community needs to be before all the various assets (in themselves maybe not valued in the "work for money" system) combine to bring mysterious value...

Actually, you have put your finger on it, rg, in your inimitable way.

The "Open Corporate" Community Partnerships I envisage would be the basic building block of the next iteration of Society - a decentralised, but connected, Society.

I almost posted a Diary earlier outlining and updating the "Dot Communities" concepts I evolved a few years ago and which is to be found in this

Japan 3.0  

essay about five years ago while working in a seriously radical satellite company in Chelmsford (but not published on my site until Dec 2005).

Maybe I will in the morning.  

"The future is already here -- it's just not very evenly distributed" William Gibson

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Mon Sep 24th, 2007 at 08:27:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
aRGH!  wERD FILE!

(Open office is free --should it have an LLP?  In fact, what business structure does it have?  Ah...questions and my wandering mind...)

I cannae explain it, but somehow people here aren't quite getting it--whatever "it" is.  I think they're missing the point and the need for these new structures.  I know you've written a lot on this, but what I'd like is something taken from the position of...one of us (Jerome with ET?), not just laying out the legal framework (no more wrappers!  I am surrounded by quality street cast offs!  ;) but maybe...hmmm...I'm intersted in the in/out flow of assets/credits.  You have liquidity through timelapse...assets go in and credits move out, assets move out and credits move in, so there are enough credits and assets to offer a cushion....ach ach achooooo!

Okay, if they are the basic building blocks, why not make a building block called ET?  Jerome (it's okay, he's not reading) wasn't against the idea, but he wasn't really for it.  However, if these building blocks are...for building on...then if we can't build one here, does that show a limit to the model?

But no!  I ask a question and don't understand the answer, so maybe imagine a new online newspaper/magazine/media outfit, high on talent and ideas but low on capitalist money cash.  On the web a lot can be done for a lot less moneycash.  So...the owner of this outfit has asked you to design an LLP for her...but she doesn't want all that tech. speak.  She wants to know

--Why should I do it?
--What kind of structure will I be creating?
--How do assets and credits move in this system?
--No, strike that, she says, you'll start talking about wrappers...
--I know you will
--and then you'll say something involving the word corporate, and that makes me think of business meetings...

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Mon Sep 24th, 2007 at 08:50:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
She just told me to tell you that she wants you to paint a picture (just this once) rather than draw technical diagrams.

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.
by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Mon Sep 24th, 2007 at 08:53:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, we have a problem here that I have no solution to, and which is applicable immediately here and in any long term community.

Let's say a number of people get together to work on a project. Input consists of contributions of differing values, by definition. Some people have more time than others, some have more creativity than others, some have nmore insight than others, some are more methodical than others, some have better contacts than others, and so on.

Each contribution is useful.

Some contributions may be essential.

It may not be obvious which is which. A chance remark from someone on the periphery can turn out to be the key to success.

Let's say the project is successful and income appears.

How should the income be distributed?

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Mon Sep 24th, 2007 at 09:02:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
... but in an arbitrary method that is accepted by most as more or less legitimate.

I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.
by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Mon Sep 24th, 2007 at 11:38:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Everyone votes what proportion of the proceeds everyone else but themselves should receive.

Oye, vatos, dees English sink todos mi ships, chinga sus madres, so escuche: el fleet es ahora refloated, OK? — The War Nerd
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Sep 25th, 2007 at 01:29:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Then how do you prevent cliques that have grown up during the project and have become convinced that their groups input was the most valuable from monopolising the credit/income?

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Sep 25th, 2007 at 03:16:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Because they only get a proportional share of the income to distribute as they see fit.

Oye, vatos, dees English sink todos mi ships, chinga sus madres, so escuche: el fleet es ahora refloated, OK? — The War Nerd
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Sep 25th, 2007 at 03:24:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Who defines the proportion?

Also, what happens if there's no agreement, or the voted distribution doesn't add up?

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Sep 25th, 2007 at 07:08:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Do I need to pull a diary on fair distribution out of my arse, now?

You have N people - you give each of them 1/N of the total to distribute as they see fit among the other N-1 people excluding themselves.

Each person then gets some assigned fraction of the total.

One can allow for different subjective valuations and payments in kind as well by means of an auction which guarantees everyone gets at least their subjective eveluation of what constitutes their share.

Oye, vatos, dees English sink todos mi ships, chinga sus madres, so escuche: el fleet es ahora refloated, OK? — The War Nerd

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Sep 25th, 2007 at 11:57:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Could we have this as a Diary, rg?

"The future is already here -- it's just not very evenly distributed" William Gibson
by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Tue Sep 25th, 2007 at 04:14:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'll get one up later today (hopefully)

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.
by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Tue Sep 25th, 2007 at 04:25:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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