ETopia: a Canticle for Leibowitz | 151 comments (151 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

Re: ETopia: a Canticle for Leibowitz (none / 1)

I think prior collapses of civilisations, most notably that of the (Western) Roman Empire and the Classic Maya (Tikal vs. Calacmul) give an example. But there is also a more recent occurence that I think is comparable. Look at this photo:

We discussed this before. The populat perception of the end of the Western Roman Empire is coloured by the influence of British historians and the fact that in the British Isles urban civilisation went away with the Roman Legions. In Hispania, the very romanized Visigoths simply took over the Roman provinces. So your mileage may vary.

Oye, vatos, dees English sink todos mi ships, chinga sus madres, so escuche: el fleet es ahora refloated, OK? — The War Nerd

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Sep 24th, 2007 at 08:14:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: ETopia: a Canticle for Leibowitz (none / 1)

I don't know about Hispania, but in France or Italy, the Roman cities shrunk dramatically (including Rome itself), and most were abandoned more to the North. The Germanic kingdoms didn't have the organisation of their predecessors.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Mon Sep 24th, 2007 at 08:19:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: ETopia: a Canticle for Leibowitz (none / 1)

Trans-Alpine Gaul would seem to naturally be a halfway position between the Britons and Iberia.

Roman cities were, of course, plumped up by the material inflows of Empire ... the receding of the Empire to the Eastern Med would naturally result in a reduced size.

Oddly enough, though, since the US imperial system was constructed in the aftermath of WWII, where the concern was not in gaining new wealth but in ensuring demand for existing productive capacity, including capacity to produce new plant and equipment, we would be enriched by the direct effect of losing the base network underpinning our imperial system.

I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Mon Sep 24th, 2007 at 05:59:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: ETopia: a Canticle for Leibowitz (none / 0)

Trans-Alpine Gaul would seem to naturally be a halfway position between the Britons and Iberia.

Think of the very heart of the Empire, too. A city falling from one million inhabitants to 20,000.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Tue Sep 25th, 2007 at 06:00:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: ETopia: a Canticle for Leibowitz (none / 1)

Yes, with the Roman cities proper specializing in living off the Empire, the collapse of the Empire in the Western Med hit Roman Italy hard.

Iberia was rather being lived off of, that's why I put Trans-Alpine Gaul halfway between the Britons and Iberia rather than halfway between the Britons and Italy ... as a matter of social as well as physical geography.

But I certainly aint no ancient historian.

I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Tue Sep 25th, 2007 at 06:13:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: ETopia: a Canticle for Leibowitz (none / 0)

I found this:

Tarraconesis (Hispania)

By the end of the third century after Christ, the emperor Diocletian made the final reorganization of Spain under Roman rule. He divided the province of Tarraconensis into three additional provinces: Cartaginensis, Gallaetia, and Tarraconensis. During this period trade began to decline. The gold and silver had been drained from the eastern coast, and the government responded by attempting to regulate wages and prices. Individuals were deprived of the freedom of movement and the right to change their occupations.

...but couldn't find any figures for Hispanian city populations after the fall of the Roman Empire (looked specifically for Tarragona/Tarraco and Barcelona/Barcino)

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Tue Sep 25th, 2007 at 07:07:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

ETopia: a Canticle for Leibowitz | 151 comments (151 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

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