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Israel/Palestine: One state or two? | 77 comments (77 topical, editorial, 6 hidden)
Re: Israel/Palestine: One state or two? (none / 1)
I am afraid that the most probable outcome is one state but not democratic. this is, israel will become a de facto one state with no right to vote for the palestinians...

I have had long discussions about the stability of such system.. and frankly they are metastable... it could stay for long... but inthe end Israel would no longer exist.

This is why keeping the sttlements is one of th emost self-destructive ideas I have seen a country made... well this and elect G.W. Bush.

In any case.. it is up to the isrealis to decide....
Palestinians will just wait.. if the palestinian state is created.. good, if not.. well at some point ask for the right to vote (probably around 2015 given demographic trends)

Oh.. and by the way-.. you rposition is the same that some jewish intelectuals living in Israel...some of them respected but most of them called self-hating jews... a term I used to read and listen a lot.

But make no mistake... Israelis could not care less about palestiinians.. and palesitnians could not care less about israelis...and one of my friends used to tell me.. can you really blame them?

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Mon Feb 4th, 2008 at 07:30:15 AM EST
Re: Israel/Palestine: One state or two? (none / 1)
Yikes - its alive!  I thought this thread was long dead.  How did it move back into the rec list?

kcurie:

Oh.. and by the way-.. you rposition is the same that some jewish intelectuals living in Israel...some of them respected but most of them called self-hating jews... a term I used to read and listen a lot.

I'm aware there is a huge diversity of views in Israel itself, and amongst Jews world-wide, and even within the Israeli parliament, but somehow the AIPAC/hardline Zionist line always seems to be represented in MSM as THE Israeli view.

If you disagree with that line you are an anti-Semite or a self-hating Jew" one of the most remarkably twists of victim psychology.

Its a pity ET doesn't seem to have more representation from progressive Israelis...

"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Mon Feb 4th, 2008 at 09:34:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Israel/Palestine: One state or two? (none / 0)
My guess is because you linked to it and mentioned that the thread contained troll-rated comments, on a slow Sunday. And because it was a slow Sunday, people took a look for the entertainment value of seeing a troll being publicly smacked down. But that's just a guess.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Mon Feb 4th, 2008 at 09:48:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Israel/Palestine: One state or two? (none / 0)
I hadn't realised that page hits, as well as recs were used to rank the rec list.

"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Mon Feb 4th, 2008 at 10:31:41 AM EST
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Re: Israel/Palestine: One state or two? (none / 0)
AFAIK, they aren't. But it is entirely possible that some of the people who came here rec'ed it. And if some of those people hadn't rec'ed it before, then it could conceivably bump it to the rec list on a slow day, because recs decay based on the date of the rec not the date of the diary.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Mon Feb 4th, 2008 at 12:04:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Israel/Palestine: One state or two? (none / 0)
In Israel theya re minority of a minority of a minority.... a couple of hundreds at the most.

Luckily .. the biggest minority has realized that either they give up settlement or the israeli democracy is at stake...

The people in th emiddle have stillnot realized about how dangerous they are... at the moment the majority just does not care... thye do not see t as dangerous.... they see Hamas as dangerous.

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Mon Feb 4th, 2008 at 11:05:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Israel/Palestine: One state or two? (none / 0)
I think you are referring to a 2 state solution along 1967 borders with a shared Jerusalem.

Is the territory allocated to the Palestinians enough for a viable country?

The land is semi-aired. Water has always been a high priority item. Would a Palestinian state actually have enough? It is possible, for example, that a first world country would have enough while a third world country would not.

I suspect that part of what has driven Israel to expand its borders at every available opportunity is that what was allocated to Israel in 1948 was not really a viable country. Even Palestine in its entirety has viability problems - especially around water. Expansion into Lebanon to gain control of water resources would definitely make things easier.

aspiring to genteel poverty

by edwin (eeeeeeee222222rrrrreeeeeaaaaadddddd@@@@yyyyaaaaaaa) on Mon Feb 4th, 2008 at 11:26:25 AM EST
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Re: Israel/Palestine: One state or two? (none / 1)
No, there is not enough water in the non-occupied parts of the West Bank for the current population.

Yes, one of consistent tactics of the settlement expansions has been to capture groundwater - although whether that's done on purpose or simply as a side-effect of grabbing the richest land first I don't know.

No, there is not enough water for everyone as it is. The water level in the Dead Sea is dropping fast.

No, there is not going to be more water in the future - if anything, the region is going to become more arid.

Yes, water consumption is greater in industrialised states due to mechanised agricultural irrigation.

Yes, the region is screwed. Badly.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Mon Feb 4th, 2008 at 12:32:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Israel/Palestine: One state or two? (none / 0)
While industrial states use more water - they also have access to technology like desalinization plants that may be out of reach for a 3rd world country.

Yes, the region is screwed. Badly.

Yup.

aspiring to genteel poverty

by edwin (eeeeeeee222222rrrrreeeeeaaaaadddddd@@@@yyyyaaaaaaa) on Mon Feb 4th, 2008 at 04:25:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Israel/Palestine: One state or two? (none / 1)
Only if they have access to energy. Are they gonna have that?

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue Feb 5th, 2008 at 02:08:17 AM EST
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Re: Israel/Palestine: One state or two? (none / 1)
I think so. They already have a nuke plant - and courtesy of apartheid s. Africa they have a certain amount of U - probably enough for 200 nukes.

Probably solar would work out ok in the region as well.

aspiring to genteel poverty

by edwin (eeeeeeee222222rrrrreeeeeaaaaadddddd@@@@yyyyaaaaaaa) on Tue Feb 5th, 2008 at 09:46:36 AM EST
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Re: Israel/Palestine: One state or two? (none / 1)
Don't be too sure about demographic trends. The Palestinian birthrate seems to be going down, as in many other Muslim countries, while the Jewish birthrate is slowly going up.

But it's not going up uniformly. Rather, the increase is limited to the religious part of the population, above all the Ultra-Orthodox, or Haredim - the Ashkenazi Hardim seem to have a fertility rate over 8 (see Appendix 2 for the decline in the Arab birthrate, and Appendix 7 for the figures for the religious Jewish population. I'd appreciate more up to date figures; all I've found is some very partial data in Ha'aretz, which only has data for a few specific cities, with on indication how representative they are.)

I've no idea what the implication of this is as far as relations with the Palestinians are concerned, as I've no idea what the views of the Haredim on such matters are. One should, however, not automatically assume that they are the same as the settlers. It does suggest that in several generations Israel may resemble a theocracy more than a democracy, and should warn against making any easy predictions based on demography.

by gk (gk (gk quattro due due sette @gmail.com)) on Mon Feb 4th, 2008 at 11:45:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Israel/Palestine: One state or two? | 77 comments (77 topical, 0 editorial, 6 hidden)