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Of course it is true. But it is also a politically charged misrepresentation. Another case of lying with statistics. If you control for the socio-economic background of young foreigners, you see that the difference becomes much less marked. At least a criminologist I saw on German teeveee last week stated that there was little difference.

This issue is complex. What the Mehmet case illustrates is that the right offers up a symbolic solution (extradition) which it can't carry through. For instance, you can't deport a young Greek because he's an EU citizen, and you can't deport a young Turk who lives in Germany because of a treaty, signed at the EU level. It conflicts with EU law, it conflicts with the European Convention on Human Rights, and it probably also conflicts with the German Verfassung. So, it's never going to hold up, but yet the right keeps pounding its symbolic drumbeat of deportations. Purely for electoral purposes, in this case.

We had the same nonsense going on in Italy a few months ago with regard to Romanians.

Originally, I was concerned with how the left could win such a debate, but the right has since completely lost control over the developing media story, so DoDo and I did a rundown of how that happened.

What I did find out in the mean while is that there is a large amount of debate among criminologists about which approach will work and that I am largely unqualified to comment upon it. If you have the time to read the wiki article on zero tolerance, you will find that it is (in some parts) written from a POV that is outright hostile to that approach.

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Thu Jan 17th, 2008 at 05:11:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You wrote:

This issue is complex. What the Mehmet case illustrates is that the right offers up a symbolic solution (extradition) which it can't carry through. For instance, you can't deport a young Greek because he's an EU citizen, and you can't deport a young Turk who lives in Germany because of a treaty, signed at the EU level. It conflicts with EU law, it conflicts with the European Convention on Human Rights, and it probably also conflicts with the German Verfassung. So, it's never going to hold up, but yet the right keeps pounding its symbolic drumbeat of deportations. Purely for electoral purposes, in this case.

The issue is indeed complex; therefore, I don't believe it can be reduced entirely to Right-versus-Left terms, though there is that element to it as well as an "election campaign drumbeat"at the present time. It's certainly true that laws against deportation from Germany have been tightened in recent years, but close inspection reveals that in each new decision there are caveats allowing deportation after consideration of strict criteria applied to a particular case.

The Mehmet affair in Munich is a case touted as a purely Right-Left controversy; however, there were ordinary people of every political stripe in the Bavarian capital who applauded the deportation of Muhlis Ari, the young Turk's real name, and they regretted the Bavarian court decision allowing him to return to Munich. The case genuinely alarmed those who were concerned about violence and crime involving youngsters. Many a voice could be heard in Munich saying, "We have no choice but to deal with our own German offenders, but let's deport foreign citizens, who are not our responsibility." That widespread reaction in Munich is a fact, and there's no getting round it.

You wrote:

What I did find out in the mean while is that there is a large amount of debate among criminologists about which approach will work and that I am largely unqualified to comment upon it. If you have the time to read the wiki article on zero tolerance, you will find that it is (in some parts) written from a POV that is outright hostile to that approach.

German media over the years have reported visits of American officials invited to Munich to explain their success at home with zero tolerance. One such American was quoted in the German press as saying: "Why do you Germans put up all your signs banning this or that when you don't enforce the ban? What then is the good of a smoking ban on public transportation or a ban against riding a bicycle the wrong way in a one-way street?"  The Americans advocated strict enforcement of every single ban. Otherwise, they said, don't put up the signs.

by Anthony Williamson on Sun Jan 20th, 2008 at 04:41:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
How is a boy born, educated and raised in Germany not a German problem? Other than the bizarre and racist laws on citizenship?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Sun Jan 20th, 2008 at 04:45:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Indeed, Antony, the subject of crime and how to deal with it, especially crimes as emotionaly charged as the ones DoDo and I talked about -- is not a simple left-right issue.

To have this out of the way: In the current political context of upcoming elections and in the German media environment that is spinning narratives on that, and the public that reacts to the controversy... the debate between those two sides is a story in its own right. We decided to focus on that. I feel that we were entirely justified in choosing that focus, that we were clear about it and that we managed to put together a piece that is tranparently partial to the left, but not blind about the vulnerabilities of the left in this issue.

Now: what you focus on is something different. It's a worthwhile issue to debate. But I want to make it as clear as possible that it is not what we set out to report on and that I do not think we ommitted anything by not discussing it. To the contrary, the piece would have lost its focus if we had included it, by trying to deal with too many issues at once. So: when you say that there is something missing because we do not discuss ways of dealing with crime, or do not discuss fears among the population, I think that you are moving the goalposts.

To move on to this very different debate:

The Mehmet affair in Munich is a case touted as a purely Right-Left controversy; however, there were ordinary people of every political stripe in the Bavarian capital who applauded the deportation of Muhlis Ari, the young Turk's real name, and they regretted the Bavarian court decision allowing him to return to Munich. The case genuinely alarmed those who were concerned about violence and crime involving youngsters. Many a voice could be heard in Munich saying, "We have no choice but to deal with our own German offenders, but let's deport foreign citizens, who are not our responsibility." That widespread reaction in Munich is a fact, and there's no getting round it.

I'll be relatively short about this. The purpose of the set of policies a society employs to deal with crime should be about dealing with crime. Not, except maybe at the margin, about dealing with the fears of the common citizen, or the visceral emotional reaction people can develop when responding to a specific high-profile criminal act. Those fears should be reduced by reducing crime, and if they are not, by better educating the public about security.

On the point of zero tolerance: as I stated there is a very spirited debate on its efficacy, as you can read in the wiki, which I am unqualified to comment upon at this time.

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Mon Jan 21st, 2008 at 04:29:18 PM EST
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