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Doctors Strangelove everywhere | 61 comments (61 topical, editorial, 0 hidden)
Re: Doctors Strangelove everywhere (4.00 / 2)
Seconded.  Just wait, because it's going to get worse.  Better dust off my draft card now, I suppose.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 at 04:52:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Doctors Strangelove everywhere (none / 1)
No, you can't get out of NATO. You're NATO. You have nukes.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 at 05:13:27 AM EST
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Re: Doctors Strangelove everywhere (4.00 / 5)
Don't kid yourself.

Look at what the French are doing in the Persian Gulf.  France under Sarkozy is building an indepedent "European" (France is Europe?) option against the Iranians and threats to the flow of oil from the region.  That's why France has taken options to develop a military presence in Dubai. It allows two things.

The French have the option of carrying out an air strike against Iranian nuke facilities if the US withdraws from the Gulf in 2009.  And if allows France a say on what comes in and out of the Straights of Hormuz, i.e. Saudi oil from Ras Tanura.

And if you really want to be disturbed consider that Sarkozy offered Germany French nukes, and not ny nukes, but the top of the line.  A nuclear submarine, the single most desired option of the nuclear triad, allowing the holder to retain a second strike option even if their homeland has been annihlated, thereby creating a balance of terror.

It's nearly impossible to take them out, becuase they are 1)mobile and 2) able to hide beneath the waves.

Sarkozy is trying, or at least tried, to break the German-American aggreement reached in 1968, when the Germans were assured US protection in exchange for remaining in NATO.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 at 05:41:57 AM EST
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Re: Doctors Strangelove everywhere (none / 0)
Sarko is trying to do such thing, he just wants to show how big a penis he has.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid on Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 at 06:49:25 AM EST
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Re: Doctors Strangelove everywhere (none / 1)
Chirac was the one who threatened to engage in a nuclear first strike against Iran in the case that they were nearing an operational weapon.

Don't confuse the actions of the the French head of state for the personal proclivities of Monsieur Sarkozy.

This is a problem that relates to France's role in the world, not the Sarkozy government alone.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 at 07:05:49 AM EST
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Re: Doctors Strangelove everywhere (3.50 / 2)
Sarkozy is trying, or at least tried, to break the German-American aggreement reached in 1968, when the Germans were assured US protection in exchange for remaining in NATO.

Is that really a bad thing?

by generic on Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 at 11:30:04 AM EST
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Re: Doctors Strangelove everywhere (none / 1)
Potentially very.

Uneasy allies is much superior to heavily armed foes.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 at 11:47:46 AM EST
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Re: Doctors Strangelove everywhere (none / 1)
As opposed to the make-believe members, France and Britain, with their make-believe nukes?  Come on.  Let's not pretend as though this is a US-only gig.  The US government is the biggest problem, but Europe isn't exactly lining up non-psychos to balance it.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 at 06:37:50 AM EST
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Re: Doctors Strangelove everywhere (4.00 / 2)
I'm talking about Spain. I know the insane [see diary] lot in North West Europe are not going to leave any time soon.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 at 06:54:39 AM EST
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Re: Doctors Strangelove everywhere (none / 1)
Yeah, but only because Spain's too busy ripping off dopey Brits buying condos to build the nukes.  You just need to focus a bit. ;)

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 at 07:01:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Doctors Strangelove everywhere (none / 1)
Spain has the capacity to be a second tier power player.  It has an impressive military capacity, including aircraft carriers (1 in operation, another coming online soon), which provides it the ability to project power where there is ocean.

And if they really wanted it, Spain could have operational nukes in less than a year due to the civilian nuclear industry.  Up until the late 1980's Spain had a passive nuclear weapons program.

In the absence of American hegemony, do you really think that Madrid is going to sit by while the global economic order is ripped to shreds by the rise of a nonliberal hegemon. (See China, see always Imperial Germany in the last century.)

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 at 07:10:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Nonliberal hegemon (4.00 / 3)
Even if the US remains the hegemon it doesn't look like there will be much liberal left about it.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 at 07:19:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Nonliberal hegemon (none / 1)
As if there's a lot that's liberal about it now, or anything liberal to look forward to?

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 at 07:27:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Nonliberal hegemon (none / 1)
Then I don't know what MfM's point is, unless it is that if we're going to have an illiberal hegemon, it's best if it is white and English-speaking.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 at 07:30:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Nonliberal hegemon (4.00 / 3)
I think his point would be that a Chinese hegemon would be worse than an American one.  I don't think either is desirable.

But, no, there's nothing liberal about American hegemony right now; there was little that was liberal about it, as BooMan has pointed out, under Bill Clinton (who gets a pass because of the sickeningly low bar set by Junior); and there'll be nothing liberal about it when St McCain or Her Majesty win the White House in November.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 at 07:43:36 AM EST
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Re: Nonliberal hegemon (none / 0)
No.

I'm saying that US hegemony while highly imperfect is at least cloaked in the capitalist system rather than naked imperialism.

I doubt that the Chinese will be so obliging.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 at 08:21:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Nonliberal hegemon (4.00 / 2)
No, it's naked imperialism.  The Bush administration trying to whip us into a frenzy over a country with all the economic might of Connecticut is psychotic.  And while I could entertain the argument that Americans at least get to hold their government accountable (unlike the Chinese), it seems to me that they...don't.

Neither form of hegemony is good.  We need a multi-polar world.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 at 08:45:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Nonliberal hegemon (none / 1)
No, really it's not.

And anyone with an inkling of understanding of what European imperialism was like in the Belgian Congo or German Southwest Africa would understand why that's an extremely inappropriate thing to say.

The problem with conflating the two, is it obscures the line between them, and makes it possible to slip from economic dominantion to the something more naked without seeing it coming.

Remember that in Iraq, the main course of civilian casualties has been intercine fighting, not something directly attributable to occupying US forces.

The last time we had mulitpolarity, we got the Second World War, because it's an unstable system that encourages states to pass the buck on deterring agressors to other great powers.

Economic autarky and withdraw to the American continent is an option for the United States if faced with Chinese agression, it is not for European states that are far more depedent on resource imports and are exposed to the east and south on land fronts that allow a nation to attack without being forced to transport their forces across large stretches of water.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 at 09:26:41 AM EST
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Re: Nonliberal hegemon (none / 0)
Never heard of Divide and Conquer?
by generic on Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 at 11:39:30 AM EST
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Re: Doctors Strangelove everywhere (none / 0)
And let's not pretend that there are circumstances in which the premptive use of nuclear weapons is justified.

I'll be honest, I have not problem with a preemptive nuclear attack on North Korean facilities if it becomes clear that they intend to put nuclear warheads that match the missiles they sell on the open market.  

Imagine a world in which warring African states or even rebel groups have access to nuclear weapons through the world market. Or private military groups like Blackwater.

Nuclear weapons must not be allowed to become an object of sale on the world market.  If they do they will be used.

And once that taboo is broken, you aren't going to put the genie back in the bottle.  Think about chemical weapons, you had prohibitions against their use in international law prior to the first World War, but once they were used on the battlfield their use multiplied.

Imagine the Iran-Iraq war with counterforce nuclear strikes by the Iraqis against Iranian forces massed in the Fao peninsula.  The Iraqis did use chemical weapons.

And remember that nuclear weapons (and the capacity to deliver them to your adversaries homeland) give possesor states a veto on foreign intervention on their territory.

There's one state that would find that incredibly desirable: Saudi Arabia.

All it would take is the possession of a small nuclear force on the order of the Israeli arsenal in order to prevent intervention.  And if Saudi falls to Sunni extremism in the way Iran fell to Khomeini in 1979?  

Would the US, Britain, or France place their cities on the line to defend the Israeli state against a genocidal attack launched by extremist intent on establishing a regional Caliphate?

What happens if the Israelis destroy Mecca? If they turn the Plain of Arafat, all the holy sites rendered radioactive wastelands?  Do you suppose that would end well for Europe or the United States?

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 at 07:03:13 AM EST
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Re: Doctors Strangelove everywhere (none / 1)
And let's not pretend that there are circumstances in which the premptive use of nuclear weapons is justified.

I don't recall saying there were such circumstances.  I'm opposed to preemption, period, but you seem to be making an argument for it on North Korea.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 at 07:57:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Doctors Strangelove everywhere (none / 0)
I am.

Just because it's an option, need not mean that it be exercised.  

What I do believe is that it's extremely dangerous for the North Koreans to do for nuclear weapons what they've done for missiles.

Put them on the market for the highest bidder.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 at 08:23:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Doctors Strangelove everywhere (4.00 / 3)
I'll answer by saying this:  Find me the North Koreans selling nukes on the market, and I'll get behind taking out their nuclear capacity.  But, personally, I'm mindful of the fact that this is the kind of thing the Bush administration was telling me before it invaded Iraq.  And it's the kind of thing Hillary Clinton was telling me when she was being questioned about the Kyl-Lieberman Amendment on Iran (before the NIE blew her triangulating garbage out of the water).  It's going to be difficult to convince me that the North Koreans are actually doing this, because surely they know they'd get caught, and because I have no reason -- not one -- to believe a God-damned word these people tell me.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 at 08:42:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Doctors Strangelove everywhere (none / 0)
The North Koreans have no problem selling missiles to many, many states.

In 2002, the Spanish ship SS Navarra, stopped a North Korean freighter of the coast of Somalia with 43 Scud missiles bound for Yemen.

They have no concern for the impact of their proliferation of missile technology, and only want to generate cold, hard cash that the can't in any other way.

For the love of all that it holy, they smuggle narcotics into developed countries using diplomatic pouches, and sell it to local dealers.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 at 09:30:08 AM EST
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Re: Doctors Strangelove everywhere (4.00 / 2)
ManfromMiddletown:
In 2002, the Spanish ship SS Navarra, stopped a North Korean freighter of the coast of Somalia with 43 Scud missiles bound for Yemen.
And then the US told them to let the ship go on its merry way.


We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 at 09:32:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Doctors Strangelove everywhere (none / 1)
Yes.

Because Yemen is offically an ally, and it wasn't the smoking gun that the Bush White House was hoping for.

Now missiles are not particularly useful without a nasty payload, and high explosive isn't that nasty.  Biological weapons are hard to disperse.  Chemical weapons have a similiar problem, and do nothing to undermine enemy infrastructures, having use in being a terror weapon or against enemy forces.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 at 11:51:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Doctors Strangelove everywhere (none / 1)
Or maybe because the US had authorised the deal beforehand, which would mean North Korea, while evil, still serves US policy.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 at 12:02:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Doctors Strangelove everywhere (4.00 / 2)
His point is well taken if you accept his premise.  I simply don't accept the premise that the North Koreans have the cajones to sell nukes.  We'd undoubtedly find out about it, and the result is easy enough to figure: No more North Korea.

In my view, it's all fear-mongering.  And, as I said, I don't believe a word any of these hawks tell me.  It's just sad that this nonsense has polluted our side of the aisle.  The Bush Doctrine has got to go, and it's absolutely shameful that Democrats are reinforcing it.  (This, more than anything else, is why I'm going to have real trouble showing up on November 4th.)  But, as Bill Maher once said, Americans would eat paint if you spent enough money on advertising.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 at 01:55:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Doctors Strangelove everywhere (none / 1)
Now China might have something to say about the Existence of North Korea - or have we all forgotten the Korean War?

Ignoring that - the bravado about punishing North Korea for selling Nukes is simply that - unless one is willing to risk the quite likely possibility that if they have nukes to sell, they have made a certain amount of effort to safe keep nukes for a second strike.

As Sibel Edmonds as point out - forget about N. Korea when it comes to selling nuclear secrets. Pay attention to a country far closer to home - the United States.

aspiring to genteel poverty

by edwin (eeeeeeee222222rrrrreeeeeaaaaadddddd@@@@yyyyaaaaaaa) on Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 at 02:04:34 PM EST
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Re: Doctors Strangelove everywhere (4.00 / 2)
Missiles are a whole different beast from nukes.

And their narcotics smuggling wouldn't be an issue if we weren't so concerned about policing other people's drug use.  We could bankrupt them on that front at a moment's notice by ending just one of our many stupid wars, but I'm in the minority on that sort of thing, unfortunately, while the majority seems content to do the same things over and over expecting different results.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 at 10:06:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Doctors Strangelove everywhere (4.00 / 2)
What? North Korea is interfering with Europe and the US's monopoly on arms trade to evil dictatorships?

How dare they!

aspiring to genteel poverty

by edwin (eeeeeeee222222rrrrreeeeeaaaaadddddd@@@@yyyyaaaaaaa) on Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 at 10:22:19 AM EST
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Re: Doctors Strangelove everywhere (none / 1)
Hey Drew, how did that recount finish in NH ? Sorry to pollute this thread, but I couldn't get to you on the other one - it sank down the priority list.
by vladimir on Wed Jan 23rd, 2008 at 11:14:59 AM EST
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Doctors Strangelove everywhere | 61 comments (61 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)
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