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By the way, did you support the Großer Lauschangriff in its original form, and various later demands to expand what became of it? *Lunatic*, n. One whose delusions are out of fashion.
*Lunatic*, n. One whose delusions are out of fashion.
With your very strict definition of 'radical' "Die Linke" is probably not a radical party, though e.g. the "Republikaner" wouldn't be one as well and they were assumed to be too extreme to be accepted as coalition partner. I doubt you can name a right wing party, which is widely accepted as coalition partner, excusing violance against any co-habitant, even if they are policemen, as justified part of political opposition as politicians from "Die Linke" have done.
>>"and judgements of developments don't rely on per capita GDP only."
True, but if the economic development is completely unsustainable, very destructive to the environment (even compared to the still not perfect protection of environment) and would lead to a bankrupcy the day the borders were opened, then I think it is quite fraudulent to promise one can remake the DDR even on the longer run. And that is the official goal, not immediately, but a development to abandon capitalism (as it is for the SPD). Unfortunately I don't know much about Hungary, but I'm indeed surprised that people on the Right in Hungary think it may have been better in 1960 than today. Though I can't imagine that this might be true by any objective measure, some problems would have occured anyway. E.g. the end of cheap oil is mostly independent of politics. And of course Hungary had no other country pumping a trillion Euro into it for catching up lost development. But even if it were true by an objective measure, this would be a success of capitalism, because Westgerman people are far better off today than then and in Hungary probably from the end of Kádár until 1990 there would have been an overall bad development. And Westgermans today would be even better off, if in Eastgermany there would have been the western model from 1949 on as well.
>>"By the way, did you support the Großer Lauschangriff in its original form, and various later demands to expand what became of it? "
As far as I know the original "Großer Lauschangriff" is rather old (I'm 25 years old) and I don't know what exactly was the original proposal.
"Stasi 2.0" is completely hyped and indeed it makes me angry that people use this term to describe actual politics. I am not happy with Schaeuble on his recent survailance increase and far less happy that he hypes an IMO nearly not existing thread of Islamistic attacks on Germany for getting his stuff through the parliament, but the dimension is simply a completely different one than the former Stasi had.
I'm sorry if you found my first statement harsh, because your analysis really had a lot of valid points regarding misinterpretation of the events by the FT. Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den MenschenVolker Pispers
Re "radical": I don't think my definition is restrictive, to the contrary, I think some cricles use it too loosely.
Regarding the Republikaner, even the present-day party demands the abolition of the right for asylum (even church asylum, which is rather strange for a party speaking about a superior "Christian-Occidental culture"), which I'd consider a rather radical change. They also demand the abolition of the Verfassungsschutz [Office for the Protection of the Constitution, created to monitor groups suspected of an intent to overthrow the democratic order, like the Nazis did], and the re-creation of Prussia state, which would change Germany rather strongly; and 'total' freedom of speech, which is a transparent sop for Holocaust deniers.
However, the Republikaner that earned the far-right reputation, and the one I am much familiar with, was the time of Franz Schönhuber (until 1994). That was much nastier, they xenophoby was without qualifications, they had no qualms about integrating hardcore ex-Nazis and neo-Nazis, and cooperation with DVU and NPD (the other two, harder far-right parties) foundered only on personalities (who should be the leader). (One small episode from that time I remember fondly was how a Turkish village, upon learning what that nice German gentleman who bought a holiday home does at home, declared Schönhuber an unwelcome person...)
Regarding violence against policemen, I don't know which specific utterance you mean (and thus whether I'd interpret it similarly to you). However, either way, I could surely quote CDU members approving violence by policemen against political demonstrators -- or worse, deported foreigners. But this is a cultural war of incompatible worldviews that won't lead anywhere. Instead, some deviations:
That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it (United States Declaration of Independence)
The doctrine of nonresistance against arbitrary power, and oppression, is absurd, slavish, and destructive of the good and happiness of mankind. (Constitution of New Hampshire) (Constitution of North Carolina) (With slight differences, Constitution of Tennessee)
I didn't know that the riots in Hungary were so serious. It seems that Hungarians are even more enthusiastic on revolution than the French. I think we have there a different culture. In Germany in the early 30s it were radical right and left wing gangs who were beating up democrats and in '89 the protests were completely peaceful without harming anybody. No violant revolution in Germany has ever brought serious improvement. If there are right-wing violant protests in Hugary I don't defend them. I can accept violance only as a very last measure for whatever purpose. Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den MenschenVolker Pispers
I know of a few instances when at G8 or similar protests, policemen (a) started the beat-up, (b) went ahead to beat the non-violent majority of the protesters, too, without or improperly distinguishing them from the violent ones. (That said, my view of the 'Black Bloc' and their violence fetish, even if against just shop windows, is entirely negative.)
most G8 protesters want the G8 to get more done, not less
Well, in a way agreed, though to my knowledge most G8 protesters want things done in the framework of other institutions, not a club of the richest countries('s governments).
I think we have there a different culture.
There are differences in culture, but not in the scale of violent protests. Though, on the German right, this is constrained to xenophobic attacks of the far-right and mostly to East Germany (think Rostock-Lichtenhagen 1992), while on the German left, the far-left Autonome was more active (think Chaostage, May Day mayhems in Berlin Kreutzberg, and some earlier nuclear transports). Looking back a bit further, let's not forget some quite violent protests against nuclear plants, against the third runway of the Frankfurt airport, and riots involving squatters (Joschka Fischer beating up a policeman!). *Lunatic*, n. One whose delusions are out of fashion.
Well, the G8 is obsolete, but often a better institution is as well lacking.
In France the revolution was good for something. In Germany even the 68er, who have achieved something, did this not so much by violent protests, but by the "march through the institutions". Teachers, school books, in a way the Green party, that was what really did it. For this Fischer is as well an example. Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den MenschenVolker Pispers
It may be that the East German Left Party has more in-the-closet Honecker admirers, especially with the big contingent of ex-SPD WASG in the West. But as the linked SPIEGEL article at the end says, the East Left Party is more mainstream-ed, e.g. closer to the center than the West German sectarian leftists among the West German Left Party members.
In France the revolution was good for something.
In hindsight :-) In the early 19th century, one could argue that the revolutionary terror of the Jacobins and the rise, emperorship and expansionist warmongering of Napoleon prove that liberalism can only deliver bloodshed and dictatorship. Conservaties of the time have actually argued so.
In Germany even the 68er, who have achieved something, did this not so much by violent protests, but by the "march through the institutions".
I argued the claim that Germany had no political violence of the level seen in Budapest recently, not its effectivity.
But on effectivity, picking nits, I note (1) the Marsch durch die Institutionen came after the street violence, with the so-called "street credibility" playing a part; (2) there is individual and collective achievement, and some of the protests decades ago did achieve a backing down of the state or changed public discourse. *Lunatic*, n. One whose delusions are out of fashion.
"I argued the claim that Germany had no political violence of the level seen in Budapest recently, not its effectivity." Then you argue a point I have not made. But one could make this point as well. My history teacher in school (who was relatively pro-68er although I don't think he used ever violence) said in France the protests had a different quality than in Germany. Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den MenschenVolker Pispers
First, there is a difference between claimed intent, and real or expected practice. In Schäuble's case, that's the difference between his claims to spy on al-Qaida cells (which you may perceive), and widely held fears of spying powers used to spy on a lot more people. There was such a difference for Stasi 1.0, too: the official rhetoric of the dictatorship was about catching spies and saboteurs, but the practice was the surveillance and blackmail of millions.
Second, there is the slippery slope aspect. just as Nazism wasn't bad only after it killed 6 million Jews (and Gypsies and homosexuals and communists) in death camps but already a decade earlier, one shouldn't just look at the end state of Stasi 1.0 as the largest state surveillance bureaucracy ever. The Stasi grew into that over years. So, Schäuble's push for increased use of surveilance with decreased checks and balances can be seen as leading down a path.
I'm sorry if you found my first statement harsh
No, I more found it challenging to a respectful debate :-) I'm just passionate about my opinions. *Lunatic*, n. One whose delusions are out of fashion.
On this, we definitely disagree. *Lunatic*, n. One whose delusions are out of fashion.
OK. You were then 15 resp. 21 years old when the important stuff happened.
The original Großer Lauschangriff was approved by CDU+FDP Bundestag majority in the last year of the Kohl government, in early 1998. It's aim was to enable police to monitor any suspect anywhere, that is also in their homes, and also journalists and pastors. Then the Bundesrat de-fanged it, but not completely. So some people -- checking, it was dissident FDP members led by Sabine Leutheusser-Schnarrenberger -- called up the constitutional court, which decided only in 2004: they didn't quash the entire law, but many of its implementation provisions. Proposals to expand it came thereafter, first from Zypries's ministry in Schröder years in the form of the supposed replacement of what the constitutional court tossed out, which was abandoned, then demands from Schäuble and others. *Lunatic*, n. One whose delusions are out of fashion.
On the current stuff from Schaeuble I was sensitised by a friend who already longer was very keen on preventing to spread too much of his data in the Internet. Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den MenschenVolker Pispers
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