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Sorry I didn't get back to you earlier.

Re "radical": I don't think my definition is restrictive, to the contrary, I think some cricles use it too loosely.

Regarding the Republikaner, even the present-day party demands the abolition of the right for asylum (even church asylum, which is rather strange for a party speaking about a superior "Christian-Occidental culture"), which I'd consider a rather radical change. They also demand the abolition of the Verfassungsschutz [Office for the Protection of the Constitution, created to monitor groups suspected of an intent to overthrow the democratic order, like the Nazis did], and the re-creation of Prussia state, which would change Germany rather strongly; and 'total' freedom of speech, which is a transparent sop for Holocaust deniers.

However, the Republikaner that earned the far-right reputation, and the one I am much familiar with, was the time of Franz Schönhuber (until 1994). That was much nastier, they xenophoby was without qualifications, they had no qualms about integrating hardcore ex-Nazis and neo-Nazis, and cooperation with DVU and NPD (the other two, harder far-right parties) foundered only on personalities (who should be the leader). (One small episode from that time I remember fondly was how a Turkish village, upon learning what that nice German gentleman who bought a holiday home does at home, declared Schönhuber an unwelcome person...)

Regarding violence against policemen, I don't know which specific utterance you mean (and thus whether I'd interpret it similarly to you). However, either way, I could surely quote CDU members approving violence by policemen against political demonstrators  -- or worse, deported foreigners. But this is a cultural war of incompatible worldviews that won't lead anywhere. Instead, some deviations:

  1. I imagine I would have a hard time explaining how I, personally, think <both> violent protesters and violent policemen can be both right and wrong, and how observers can be wrong about both the the assumption of justified and unjustified violence, by both protesters and policemen; and that without being accused of equivocation. However, to get my perspective across in a different context, I refer you to some of my writing on the Budapest riots in 2006 and 2007 -- where the rioters were on the right and the 'police supporters' on the Right: on the first riot (see the comments), Scary (if you check just one, check this), second major riot, The Day Budapest Burns To Cinder (or not) (third major riot and precedents, with in-person observations).

  2. At a level of principles, on the topic of violence against practicioners of the state monopoly on violence, I quote some official documents:

That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it
(United States Declaration of Independence)

The doctrine of nonresistance against arbitrary power, and oppression, is absurd, slavish, and destructive of the good and happiness of mankind.
(Constitution of New Hampshire)
(Constitution of North Carolina)
(With slight differences, Constitution of Tennessee)


*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Mon Feb 4th, 2008 at 02:50:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In principle it is of course right, that one has the right to defend against the gov violantly, but the question is under which circumstances.
Policemen are lousy paid and on big issues, e.g. those negotiated on G8 summits, they often agree with people who defend than those who beat them up.
Therefore I think this is a sign of being against the whole system, because for consistency one would have to suggest the policemen to stay at home. This of course is even more inconsistent as e.g. most G8 protesters want the G8 to get more done, not less.

I didn't know that the riots in Hungary were so serious. It seems that Hungarians are even more enthusiastic on revolution than the French.
I think we have there a different culture. In Germany in the early 30s it were radical right and left wing gangs who were beating up democrats and in '89 the protests were completely peaceful without harming anybody. No violant revolution in Germany has ever brought serious improvement.
If there are right-wing violant protests in Hugary I don't defend them. I can accept violance only as a very last measure for whatever purpose.

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Thu Feb 7th, 2008 at 04:36:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Policemen are lousy paid and on big issues, e.g. those negotiated on G8 summits, they often agree with people who defend than those who beat them up.

I know of a few instances when at G8 or similar protests, policemen (a) started the beat-up, (b) went ahead to beat the non-violent majority of the protesters, too, without or improperly distinguishing them from the violent ones. (That said, my view of the 'Black Bloc' and their violence fetish, even if against just shop windows, is entirely negative.)

most G8 protesters want the G8 to get more done, not less

Well, in a way agreed, though to my knowledge most G8 protesters want things done in the framework of other institutions, not a club of the richest countries('s governments).

I think we have there a different culture.

There are differences in culture, but not in the scale of violent protests. Though, on the German right, this is constrained to xenophobic attacks of the far-right and mostly to East Germany (think Rostock-Lichtenhagen 1992), while on the German left, the far-left Autonome was more active (think Chaostage, May Day mayhems in Berlin Kreutzberg, and some earlier nuclear transports). Looking back a bit further, let's not forget some quite violent protests against nuclear plants, against the third runway of the Frankfurt airport, and riots involving squatters (Joschka Fischer beating up a policeman!).

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Fri Feb 15th, 2008 at 11:42:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
On the first I think we agree on what is the right thing to do and what is the wrong thing to do. I just see quite a lot people who seem to think different.
Your diary about the party exclusion in lower saxony is a sign that at least in the west really Die Linke changes its behavior. I still don't think that this would have happened in east Germany.

Well, the G8 is obsolete, but often a better institution is as well lacking.

In France the revolution was good for something. In Germany even the 68er, who have achieved something, did this not so much by violent protests, but by the "march through the institutions". Teachers, school books, in a way the Green party, that was what really did it. For this Fischer is as well an example.

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 02:19:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I still don't think that this would have happened in east Germany.

It may be that the East German Left Party has more in-the-closet Honecker admirers, especially with the big contingent of ex-SPD WASG in the West. But as the linked SPIEGEL article at the end says, the East Left Party is more mainstream-ed, e.g. closer to the center than the West German sectarian leftists among the West German Left Party members.

In France the revolution was good for something.

In hindsight :-) In the early 19th century, one could argue that the revolutionary terror of the Jacobins and the rise, emperorship and expansionist warmongering of Napoleon prove that liberalism can only deliver bloodshed and dictatorship. Conservaties of the time have actually argued so.

In Germany even the 68er, who have achieved something, did this not so much by violent protests, but by the "march through the institutions".

I argued the claim that Germany had no political violence of the level seen in Budapest recently, not its effectivity.

But on effectivity, picking nits, I note (1) the Marsch durch die Institutionen came after the street violence, with the so-called "street credibility" playing a part; (2) there is individual and collective achievement, and some of the protests decades ago did achieve a backing down of the state or changed public discourse.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Mon Feb 25th, 2008 at 07:58:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You are right, with regard to most every day policies, that "Die Linke" is more main stream in the east. But that was never my biggest problem with them. I disagree with them, but what they suggest e.g. on taxes, social aid and so on, is often just SPD positions a bit more radical a decade or so ago, and would hardly justify to declare it an undemocratic party, which is done, when some say they have talks with all democratic parties, but don't mean Die Linke with this. My main problem with them is, that too often various PDS politicians have proven a very strange understanding of history.

"I argued the claim that Germany had no political violence of the level seen in Budapest recently, not its effectivity."
Then you argue a point I have not made. But one could make this point as well. My history teacher in school (who was relatively pro-68er although I don't think he used ever violence) said in France the protests had a different quality than in Germany.

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Mon Feb 25th, 2008 at 09:50:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In 1968, the French protests were definitely on another level. However, France didn't have anything comparable to the fight over Startbahn West or the big anti-nuke protests, and the street fights accompanying the car-burnings one and a half years ago were less worse than the worst Chaostage.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Mon Feb 25th, 2008 at 10:28:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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