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Spinning the German left swing | 35 comments (35 topical, editorial, 0 hidden)
Re: Spinning the German left swing (none / 0)
Policemen are lousy paid and on big issues, e.g. those negotiated on G8 summits, they often agree with people who defend than those who beat them up.

I know of a few instances when at G8 or similar protests, policemen (a) started the beat-up, (b) went ahead to beat the non-violent majority of the protesters, too, without or improperly distinguishing them from the violent ones. (That said, my view of the 'Black Bloc' and their violence fetish, even if against just shop windows, is entirely negative.)

most G8 protesters want the G8 to get more done, not less

Well, in a way agreed, though to my knowledge most G8 protesters want things done in the framework of other institutions, not a club of the richest countries('s governments).

I think we have there a different culture.

There are differences in culture, but not in the scale of violent protests. Though, on the German right, this is constrained to xenophobic attacks of the far-right and mostly to East Germany (think Rostock-Lichtenhagen 1992), while on the German left, the far-left Autonome was more active (think Chaostage, May Day mayhems in Berlin Kreutzberg, and some earlier nuclear transports). Looking back a bit further, let's not forget some quite violent protests against nuclear plants, against the third runway of the Frankfurt airport, and riots involving squatters (Joschka Fischer beating up a policeman!).

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Fri Feb 15th, 2008 at 11:42:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Spinning the German left swing (none / 0)
On the first I think we agree on what is the right thing to do and what is the wrong thing to do. I just see quite a lot people who seem to think different.
Your diary about the party exclusion in lower saxony is a sign that at least in the west really Die Linke changes its behavior. I still don't think that this would have happened in east Germany.

Well, the G8 is obsolete, but often a better institution is as well lacking.

In France the revolution was good for something. In Germany even the 68er, who have achieved something, did this not so much by violent protests, but by the "march through the institutions". Teachers, school books, in a way the Green party, that was what really did it. For this Fischer is as well an example.

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 02:19:19 PM EST
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Re: Spinning the German left swing (none / 0)
I still don't think that this would have happened in east Germany.

It may be that the East German Left Party has more in-the-closet Honecker admirers, especially with the big contingent of ex-SPD WASG in the West. But as the linked SPIEGEL article at the end says, the East Left Party is more mainstream-ed, e.g. closer to the center than the West German sectarian leftists among the West German Left Party members.

In France the revolution was good for something.

In hindsight :-) In the early 19th century, one could argue that the revolutionary terror of the Jacobins and the rise, emperorship and expansionist warmongering of Napoleon prove that liberalism can only deliver bloodshed and dictatorship. Conservaties of the time have actually argued so.

In Germany even the 68er, who have achieved something, did this not so much by violent protests, but by the "march through the institutions".

I argued the claim that Germany had no political violence of the level seen in Budapest recently, not its effectivity.

But on effectivity, picking nits, I note (1) the Marsch durch die Institutionen came after the street violence, with the so-called "street credibility" playing a part; (2) there is individual and collective achievement, and some of the protests decades ago did achieve a backing down of the state or changed public discourse.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Mon Feb 25th, 2008 at 07:58:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Spinning the German left swing (none / 0)
You are right, with regard to most every day policies, that "Die Linke" is more main stream in the east. But that was never my biggest problem with them. I disagree with them, but what they suggest e.g. on taxes, social aid and so on, is often just SPD positions a bit more radical a decade or so ago, and would hardly justify to declare it an undemocratic party, which is done, when some say they have talks with all democratic parties, but don't mean Die Linke with this. My main problem with them is, that too often various PDS politicians have proven a very strange understanding of history.

"I argued the claim that Germany had no political violence of the level seen in Budapest recently, not its effectivity."
Then you argue a point I have not made. But one could make this point as well. My history teacher in school (who was relatively pro-68er although I don't think he used ever violence) said in France the protests had a different quality than in Germany.

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Mon Feb 25th, 2008 at 09:50:36 AM EST
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Re: Spinning the German left swing (none / 0)
In 1968, the French protests were definitely on another level. However, France didn't have anything comparable to the fight over Startbahn West or the big anti-nuke protests, and the street fights accompanying the car-burnings one and a half years ago were less worse than the worst Chaostage.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Mon Feb 25th, 2008 at 10:28:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Spinning the German left swing | 35 comments (35 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)
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