Welcome to European Tribune. It's gone a bit quiet around here these days, but it's still going.
Display:
# 4328976325762

The number of German students enrolling in foreign universities, particularly the Netherlands has meanwhile continued to rise. Tuition fees in the Netherlands are 3 times higher. But there often is no 'numerus clausus' and the quality of education is better, or so many Germans at least seem to think.

Over 14,000 of them now. And, of course, they are the uppper(/-)middle class kids whose parents can afford it.

The issue is of course that the money (1000 EUR/Y) is not being used to invest more in higher education, but rather to plug holes in the budget. It's an aftereffect of the Schröder reforms which burdened state budgets.

I don't know what the current state of the German federalism reform is. But higher education needs to be taken completely out of the hands of the states as soon as possible.

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Tue Oct 21st, 2008 at 03:08:20 PM EST
Most states expected recently significant surpluses, while the federal level is still in considerable deficit. The fees are not to plug holes.

But higher education needs to be taken completely out of the hands of the states as soon as possible.
Despite in higher education it is not so important where it is dealt with, can you name reasons why to do this?

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Tue Oct 21st, 2008 at 03:29:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Various reasons: the current university fees have thrown up a collective action problem. Other states can respond by starting to collect their own, or by upping the Numerus Clausus. Bremen and Hamburg collect fees for students who live outside of the states, which causes all kinds of misallocation (and seems like a class action lawsuit just waiting to happen, by the way).

State governance of higher education causes excessive dirigism (e.g. direct interventions in the curriculum of single universities for reasons of local industrial policy, or budget savings -- I've seen this happen in Berlin) which could be avoided if the federal government took over. It could be a liberalising measure in that sense.

Students, at least those whose parents have an above modal income (most) are highly and increasingly mobile at any rate. As evidenced by the increasing number enrolled in foreign universities. The state that educates them may not be the state that they work in two or four years afterwards. This will eventually cause a mismatch between spending and revenues.

On study fees - 3 states that have them are in the blue (out of 9) and 5 are in the yellow or red. Plenty of other issues with the map (at the height of the business cycle). But doing an investigation into spending on education would be worth the time and could clear up a 'yes it is' 'no it isn't' discussion. For a rainy day.

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Tue Oct 21st, 2008 at 04:27:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
5 are in the yellow or red.

I can't count (see below)...

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Oct 21st, 2008 at 04:37:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think it is an advantage for states to attract students from other states. Often many of them stay where they study instead of going back to their home states. Bremen is too small to profit adequatly from that, but already Hamburg shouldn't suffer too much. Bremen is in general too small and shouldn't be a state on its own.
The extremely bad Bachelor/Master reform came from the federal (or even European) level. The curriculum will be checked by private for-profit organisations without people, who have any clue about the fields of research at the university.

Excessive dirigism is easier to bear, when every state focuses on its own fields. You then can go to the university that suits your wishes in a different state.

Budget issues are a priority issue. Why would the federal level spend sufficient amounts, when state authorities don't? Recently I read about the railway planning on the federal level. There is one bn or so spend every year and ideas for many dozen bn. But investment into railways, which is already a pet project of many politicians, has no chance to get sufficient spending, when the alternative is e.g. an out of order retirement increase (For next year a break in the "Riesterfaktor" is planned). On the state level there are less high profile social spending issues than on the federal level, where retirement spending or welfare spending has to be balanced with investment into the future.

The state that educates them may not be the state that they work in two or four years afterwards. This will eventually cause a mismatch between spending and revenues.
It is rather often. BW and Bavaria profit massively from students from the north (not unlike me and my two brothers), that stay there. After all these states don't have to pay for the school education any more.

The map was ment to show that there is overall no state vs. federal level issue, where the states are in more trouble.
But there are of course ways the federal level could contribute, I just don't see the big advantages. In recent years most changes didn't bring the improvement they promised. More students fail to get the bachelor, it has become more difficult to switch university inside Germany, the student fees are used to do things, that anyhow should have been done and students refuse to take the newly invented student loans but refrain from higher education instead. Pay reform for professors is mostly a cutting measure and the limitation of chaining time limited positions indefinitly has created unemployed scientists, that have no chance ever to get any public position unless they work in the meantime for free. The current federal minister for research is a theologian, before there was an English teacher, while the proud of many German universities is engineering. Just doing nothing seems to be very attractive to me.

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Tue Oct 21st, 2008 at 06:05:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
However, four of the seven states with tuition fees are among those still not balancing the budget in 2008, and most pursued tuition fees before the improvement of finances.

Could you give an article link? I'm curious how the data reflects the Länderfinanzausgleich.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Oct 21st, 2008 at 04:33:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It is from this article.

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers
by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Tue Oct 21st, 2008 at 05:29:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, sadly, nothing said about Länderfinanzausgleich in the article.

But, for your argument: I find it is a projection for 2008 at the end of 2007. And indeed they mention that such good finances are a recent development -- Baden-Württenberg, which was first to introduce tuition fees, is quoted explicitely as still having a giant deficit in 2006. Furthermore, they say:

Die Kombination aus früheren Sparanstrengungen, guter Konjunktur und steigenden Steuereinnahmen hat in den öffentlichen Haushalten die Wende zum Besseren möglich gemacht.The combination of previous savings efforts, good economic situation and rising tax revenues has enabled a change for the better in public budgets.


*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Oct 22nd, 2008 at 03:18:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, but have you seen the federal deficit numbers? Even the good economic situation, the VAT tax increase and several other measures did not bring that budget into balance.

And if the 2006 "Kredite in Milliardenhöhe" is really high by sustainability standards is not clear to me either. The total debt of BW is 44 bn Euro. Alone current inflation would reduce the level of debt by more than one billion per year in real terms. The state would have been able to go without tuition fees and simply borrow the money.

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Wed Oct 22nd, 2008 at 07:42:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Display:

Occasional Series