Welcome to European Tribune. It's gone a bit quiet around here these days, but it's still going.
Display:
I find speaking that way about the catholics a terrible disrespect for all those millions who sincerely believe in their faith, or for those million priests honestly faithful and inspired towards doing good and helping people.
Your posts seem to indicate everything is black and white for you. Not every man is a mysoginist, every white a racist, or every catholic priest an oppressor. Opening up to the reality of the world can do wonders to lighten up the spirit.

Free at last! Free at last! Thank God Almighty, we are free at last! (Martin Luther King)
by ValentinD (walentijn arobase free spot frança) on Wed Nov 12th, 2008 at 07:27:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Great. Criticism is "disrespect". That has a way of narrowing the debate.

You're the one holding a simplistic view of the world, refusing to look at root causes of the choices of individuals in a society - you could have different answers, but you're not actually giving any, just sweeping the subject under the rug.

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères

by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Wed Nov 12th, 2008 at 07:39:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Criticism is "disrespect".

You missed that memo? You haven't been paying attention. Asking questions is also disrespect these days. Querying sources, asking for evidence?  Disrespect.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Nov 12th, 2008 at 08:03:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
hasn't ET shown me the door?  Most of what I do is ask questions.  That, and swear a lot.  And make unfunny quips.  And ...

They tried to assimilate me. They failed.
by THE Twank (yatta blah blah @ blah.com) on Wed Nov 12th, 2008 at 08:52:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Calling the catholic church a sect is a lack of respect for those who act in good faith, and doing good. Those were means of coercition in some situations, but not always, not to everyone, not by everyone. Such exaggerations and generalizations, like that calling faith a delusion, are of course part of our right to free speech, but are disrespectful and intolerant towards all those fine christian men I know.

Free at last! Free at last! Thank God Almighty, we are free at last! (Martin Luther King)
by ValentinD (walentijn arobase free spot frança) on Thu Nov 13th, 2008 at 02:51:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"sect: a subdivision of a larger religious group"

or

"In the sociology of religion a sect is generally a small religious or political group that has broken off from a larger group, for example from a large, well-established religious group, like a denomination, usually due to a dispute about doctrinal matters. "

Works for me, whether you want to consider it a sub-group of Christian denominations or of the Abrahamic  religious complex (Christians/Jews/Muslims and assorted hangers on).

And faith is a delusion. I missed the point when speaking truth became intolerance: you want to be deluded, feel free.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Nov 13th, 2008 at 02:58:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
According to the french law, the catholic church is a church, not a sect. According to historical data, it is others who split from it, not the other way around.

But that's not even the point. We're not discussing religion here, it is not me who brought this topic, and if you or linca see the faith or the church as an instrument of oppression, as something wrong, or a delusion, this is your right to free thinking. The terms you put it here bring you on the border of free speech - I'm not sure delusional is not an insult according to the law. But it's the sense of intolerance that disturbs me. Can you really not conceive that amongst the deluded and oppressing, may be good people, helping those in need ? How can you generalize like this? Even when you had something personal against religion or the catholic church, airing this on a public forum borders hate speech. The same kind Helen was outing when calling names all those against Prop.8.

On te other hand, if this is a forum whose established, official political line is so, I'll gladly spare you of my presence.

I was looking for a forum more about mutual respect, freedom to not be judged for personal values, rational argumenting, basic tolerance.

Free at last! Free at last! Thank God Almighty, we are free at last! (Martin Luther King)

by ValentinD (walentijn arobase free spot frança) on Thu Nov 13th, 2008 at 03:27:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

 The terms you put it here bring you on the border of free speech - I'm not sure delusional is not an insult according to the law.

"A delusion is commonly defined as a fixed false belief and is used in everyday language to describe a belief that is either false, fanciful or derived from deception. ...:

If the shoe fits ...

Can you really not conceive that amongst the deluded and oppressing, may be good people, helping those in need ?

That doesn't mean they're not deluded.


I was looking for a forum more about mutual respect, freedom to not be judged for personal values, rational argumenting, basic tolerance.

Sure you are. I think I saw one go that-a-way.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Nov 13th, 2008 at 03:44:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
delusional    
    An insult/label often flung at those who have beliefs that are not commonly accepted.
(UrbanDictionary)

Or else you can just go outside, call someone out there deluded and see if they take it as an insult or not :)

Free at last! Free at last! Thank God Almighty, we are free at last! (Martin Luther King)

by ValentinD (walentijn arobase free spot frança) on Thu Nov 13th, 2008 at 04:05:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
As you know, the Urban Dictionary is a user-defined dictionary, and this definition is a witticism. But fair enough if you want to cite it as such.

However, it seems to me a lot of what you have to say about unions, strikers, social policies, the excessive pay of train-drivers, etc, is very much part of beliefs that are "commonly accepted".

Somehow, seeing you as part of a downtrodden minority, in a country where your views can be commonly heard and are above all touted by the ruling party and president, doesn't quite work for me.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Nov 13th, 2008 at 04:28:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Did I mention train driver pay? It was rather their working conditions, which are ultramodern and better than those of many other jobs today.

As to strikers, I spoke precisely about the Paris transports. I'll gladly add most French train worker unions. I never generalized.

I had one only problem with "social policies": vilifying categories and excessive use of superficial statistics. I tried to prove my point, and InWales has agreed that fairness goes both ways. It is saddening that you had the impression you had. My middle names are Moderation, Tolerance, and ItAllGoesBothWays.
:)

(does anyone ever smile over here, btw, or am I really looking like the black sheep)

Free at last! Free at last! Thank God Almighty, we are free at last! (Martin Luther King)

by ValentinD (walentijn arobase free spot frança) on Thu Nov 13th, 2008 at 04:49:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
According to historical data, it is others who split from it, not the other way around.

Well, technically, the Catholic Church split off Orthodox Christianity by claiming the primacy of Rome.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Thu Nov 13th, 2008 at 06:34:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Not so. That was a schism, a split, two sides that get divided. Not a branch taking off. You seem to know a bit about history, it's odd to defend the idea that the catholic church would be a sect of the orthodox one. It's the first time I hear that, frankly. As say the French, on aura tout vu...

Free at last! Free at last! Thank God Almighty, we are free at last! (Martin Luther King)
by ValentinD (walentijn arobase free spot frança) on Fri Nov 14th, 2008 at 04:50:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That was a schism, a split, two sides that get divided.

Nope. That was one patriarch among several equals claiming a place above the others. Orthodox Christianity never had and still doesn't have one single head. (And a branch taking off is also two sides that get divided.)

It's the first time I hear that, frankly.

Well -- based on what you wrote so far, I am not surprised. Maybe I should tell you about the multiple Messsiahs and about Constantine's volte face someday.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Fri Nov 14th, 2008 at 05:45:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Relations between East and West had long been embittered by political and ecclesiastical differences and theological disputes.
Pope Leo IX and Patriarch of Constantinople Michael Cerularius, heightened the conflict by suppressing Greek and Latin in their respective domains. In 1054, Roman legates traveled to Cerularius to deny him the title Ecumenical Patriarch and to insist that he recognize the Roman Catholic claim to be the head and mother of the churches.
Cerularius refused. The leader of the Latin contingent excommunicated Cerularius, while he excommunicated the legates.

Mutually.
A mutuaally consented divorce.

Do you have any proof, quotation or link to an authority calling the Catholic church a sect of the Orthodox ?


Free at last! Free at last! Thank God Almighty, we are free at last! (Martin Luther King)

by ValentinD (walentijn arobase free spot frança) on Fri Nov 14th, 2008 at 06:24:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Calling the catholic church a sect is a lack of respect for those who act in good faith, and doing good.

Huh!? There are people who act on good faith and do good in every sect. That has nothing to do with being delusional.

calling faith a delusion, are of course part of our right to free speech, but are disrespectful and intolerant towards all those fine christian men I know.

What about non-Christian men and women? Say polytheist versions of Hinduism and just about every mainstream version of Christianity are incompatible, thus at least one group of faithful is delusional. I don't think thinking someone is delusional is necessarily disrespectful, and it is certainly not intolerant.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Thu Nov 13th, 2008 at 06:32:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I wouldn't call anyone delusional for their faith, religion, sect, church or denomination,or their values in general. I respect others and their values and life choices. I can respect homosexuals, catholics, defenders of the family, muslims and buddhists. Libertarians and materialists are anathema from a catholic viewpoint, and catholics are delusional for materialists, but I don't appreciate it when people throw invectives at each other - and if you defend the civility of the term, I think that is really a lost cause :)


Free at last! Free at last! Thank God Almighty, we are free at last! (Martin Luther King)
by ValentinD (walentijn arobase free spot frança) on Fri Nov 14th, 2008 at 04:55:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re-stating your view without taking my actual points into any account is not a good debating practice.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Fri Nov 14th, 2008 at 05:48:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I didn't restate it. It is you who read it sloppily - and since this must be the tenth time this happens, with your permission, I'll add: as usual.

Delusional is today perceived as an insult. Calling an opponent, someone with other views or believes, deluded, is today perceived as an insult. You just have to join Colman outside, where he's gone to test my statement and is just getting a beating from a deluded drunkard :)

Free at last! Free at last! Thank God Almighty, we are free at last! (Martin Luther King)

by ValentinD (walentijn arobase free spot frança) on Fri Nov 14th, 2008 at 06:28:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Stop this bashing, Valentin! You insult Colman, who expressed himself in a balanced, tolerant, civilized way!

Free at last! Free at last! Thank God Almighty, we are free at last! (Martin Luther King)
by ValentinD (walentijn arobase free spot frança) on Fri Nov 14th, 2008 at 06:31:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Display:

Occasional Series