Welcome to European Tribune. It's gone a bit quiet around here these days, but it's still going.
Display:
the radicalization and tough leftwing bias of unions

If so, hooray ;-) Pun and my political affiliations aside, you repeated this "leftwing" thing a few times, but what does it mean? Trade unions are for defending workers' rights, something leftwing by nature (even if the union is closer to right-wing parties, say the most strike-happy rail union in Hungary), so do you mean explicit Marxist ideology or partisan opposition to Sarko & co?

I'm amongst those Parisians feeling completely fed up with those unions' warfare.

You see, frames. I am more fed up with managements' warfare against unions, in the form of ultimatums and virtual paycuts [upthread afew left out the "virtual"] and the spreading of malicious spin, which seems worst in France (I haven't often heard the "they have it so good" argument in Hungary or Germany).

How should you debate statements of faith? By reading them honestly, rationally and without bias.

Huh. No. Reading statements of faith in whatever way won't enable me to debate them. Statements of faith are the end of debate, the exclusion of any counter-argument, the exclusion of any use of mutually accessible evidence to base arguments upon.

read my "I believe" as "your arguments are not very convincing"

That doesn't help me in any way. Your statement of lack of conviction doesn't tell me what your problem is with my arguments and thus what back-up is needed to convince you.

this is not the right thread.

This discussion that verged (repeatedly) off-topic is in my diary, so I don't see why you see a problem with it...

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Thu Nov 13th, 2008 at 06:53:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I do mean Marxist and/or communist ideology, I mean connections with the communist party or the LCR.

Your being fed up with managers is politically biased, I suspect :)
And quite theoretical.
I live this in every day life and I do not think these strikes are reasonable or defendable. It's a citizen opinion. I go to work, you're in your armchair commenting. I got sick last winter, ten days in bed. You were probably commenting on the poor worker conditions and the big bad wolf Sarkozy.

Free at last! Free at last! Thank God Almighty, we are free at last! (Martin Luther King)

by ValentinD (walentijn arobase free spot franša) on Fri Nov 14th, 2008 at 05:10:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I do mean Marxist and/or communist ideology, I mean connections with the communist party or the LCR.

Cool! ;-) Specifics?

Your being fed up with managers is politically biased, I suspect :)

More the opposite way -- a source for my political biases :-)

I live this in every day life and I do not think these strikes are reasonable or defendable. It's a citizen opinion.

You always blame the strikers for your inconvenience, never the managers. That's not simple citizen's opinion, that's a political taking of sides in labour conflict.

I go to work, you're in your armchair commenting.

I too go to work, and lately strikes were as common here as in France, if not more.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Fri Nov 14th, 2008 at 06:02:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
CGT and Sud Rail. In case you never heard, o'em, you can find them on Google and Wikipedia!

I blame the strikers when I have reasons to. When Air France pilots defend the obligatory 60-yo retirement, when Paris transporters defend their privileges and refuse being on par with other public workers (let alone privateers like meself) forming a caste of privileged, well it is them, transporters who are the new oppressor class. Their strike is theirs therefore.

When they refuse being on par with others because of "droits acquis", and when told money not enough, they ask for extra financial revenue taxation, this is politics. Not union work.

The role of the teacher unions is not to support "le service public", but to protect the employees, the teachers. Or they manifest and strike on political reasons that don't affect teachers in any way. They do political work, for political parties.
This is not ok. I wonder if this happens in Germany, for instance (I don't about Italy - those unions are even less true unions and more political than the French ones - purely objectively)

Free at last! Free at last! Thank God Almighty, we are free at last! (Martin Luther King)

by ValentinD (walentijn arobase free spot franša) on Fri Nov 14th, 2008 at 07:57:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
ValentinD:
this is politics. Not union work.

Oops. :)

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Fri Nov 14th, 2008 at 08:10:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
CGT and Sud Rail.

That's not specifics, that's the names of two unions. I would be really startled to read specifics pointing to a radicalisation of CGT, when it's just the trade union that broke with the Communists and moved towards the centre, and its leadership opposed the last major strike in 2007...

I blame the strikers when I have reasons to.

Then you go on to repeat talking points of the right-wing government. "Defend privileges", heh -- so you are for virtual paycuts.

Their strike is theirs

The demand for virtual paycuts is managements'. If they just wanted to end 'privileges', they could have transformed non-wage compensations and benefits into payrises.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Sat Nov 15th, 2008 at 07:59:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The CGT has been radicaliezd for a long longt time and has moderated a bit just last year. The whole string of CGT strikes this year are mainly politically motivated. There were legal actions open about CGT financing and their connection with the left.

Transport workers had a range of financial advantages that no one else had in France, except maybe parliamentarians. Calling this privileges is a common sense statement precisely reflecting the reality. This is a caste of privileged, compared to the rest of the workers. Considering their "droits acquis" normal and speaking about virtual paycuts (curious expression, does it translate in a virtual reduction of the size of their lunch, or in giving up a virtual toy for their virtual kids) is typical leftwing propaganda.

I can't give you specifics at the detailed level you imply, and you know that. Not because they do not exist, but because I cannot comment simultaneously on inequalities, socially-imposed gender roles, history, religion, working conditions today, nurses, French unions.

You'll soon find an essay on my diary explaining in detail my view on society, with all its different aspects.
The fact that you don't have it here and now, is solely because this debate here is about inequality and gender roles, and when one has 240 posts, one needs to focus one's discourse. This doesn't "frame" that person as not serious, superficial, ignorant, or political propagandist.
You may always say it, but it ain't so.

Free at last! Free at last! Thank God Almighty, we are free at last! (Martin Luther King)

by ValentinD (walentijn arobase free spot franša) on Sat Nov 15th, 2008 at 10:10:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You're turning my words upside down again, it is you who called my opinions "statements of faith". Maybe as a pretext to not debate ?  What I meant is that I don't have enough time now and this is not the place to go into more detail, so I told you my overall sentiment about your words.

If this thread ever ends, now that I seem to have antagonised most if not all regulars, I'll be happy to debate workers' condition & co.

Free at last! Free at last! Thank God Almighty, we are free at last! (Martin Luther King)

by ValentinD (walentijn arobase free spot franša) on Fri Nov 14th, 2008 at 05:12:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
We are talking about a claim of yours that was based on "I believe" alone, and you didn't protest its characterisation as "statement of faith" before. How many rounds of this do you have time for?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Fri Nov 14th, 2008 at 06:06:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I have not made any statements of faith here.

My "claim" is not based on "I believe". I used that expression referring to your long post on transport workers' working conditions.
It was not convincing, and since I can't focus on a dozen topics at a time, I told you just that for the time being, and I added that I will gladly debate that topic with you separately.

Your attempt to decredibilize my posts by claiming they're not argumented is a bit pathetic, frankly.

Free at last! Free at last! Thank God Almighty, we are free at last! (Martin Luther King)

by ValentinD (walentijn arobase free spot franša) on Sat Nov 15th, 2008 at 10:19:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I seem to have antagonised most if not all regulars

It seems to me it's only half a dozen of the regulars bothering.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Fri Nov 14th, 2008 at 06:14:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
readind recent comments or replies to their own comments ;-)

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Fri Nov 14th, 2008 at 06:28:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It appears there are about a dozen all in all, so my statement stands!


Free at last! Free at last! Thank God Almighty, we are free at last! (Martin Luther King)
by ValentinD (walentijn arobase free spot franša) on Fri Nov 14th, 2008 at 08:03:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You aren't as new on ET to not recognise more than a dozen. I could list about fifty regulars off-hand. Just frontpagers number 10, and even most of them ignored this discussion. All registered users number about 3,500.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Sat Nov 15th, 2008 at 08:05:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What defines a regular? I claim the first 12 contributors post far more than the other 30-40 regular contributors, so they can be identified as the true regulars, rather than all occasional posters.

Given your general taste for precision, I'd rather have the blog stats, rather than your words.

Free at last! Free at last! Thank God Almighty, we are free at last! (Martin Luther King)

by ValentinD (walentijn arobase free spot franša) on Sat Nov 15th, 2008 at 10:15:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Display:

Top Diaries

Winning Diplomacy

by Frank Schnittger - Jul 10
16 comments

Epilogue Chris Steele

by Oui - Jul 12
1 comment

Brexiteers and Buccaneers

by Oui - Jul 7
15 comments

Municipal elections in France

by eurogreen - Jun 28
24 comments

Occasional Series