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ValentinD:
In what concerns me, I replied to a rather simplistic statement of InWales, statement which she explained and nuanced in what followed.
No one realized (or indeed appreciated) that this has in the end followed my own reasoning.

No, not exactly. I was trying to demonstrate, by peeling back layer after layer that your view of our hideous left wing rhetoric was ill informed or at least your perception of what it all amounts to wasn't accurate.  I didn't change my discourse until it agreed with you, I tried to show you that the statements you were making about my view on equalities weren't accurate.  

There are still plenty of things we've not reached any agreement on - in my view mainly your belief that there are not socially constructed gender stereotypes and therefore no such thing is influencing the choices people make with their lives.  You also still don't seem to take on board that I have never once suggested that people should be made to do things they don't want to do.

I want to break down the stereotypes that cause institutional and structural discrimination in society - which does exist.  I believe that legislation is an important part of that, and education alone doesn't work -  I speak form experience there.

Besides, we don't even agree on what we should be educating people about because the gender stereotypes that I think are socially constructed and need tackling, you think amounts to 'old wisdom'.

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Fri Nov 14th, 2008 at 04:57:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
A, a a !  You peeled back what you thought was my view. In what concerns me, I replied to your phrase about monitoring companies and if there are gender discrepancies, they need to address the causes. I replied because the causes are not always within the reach of companies' scope of action.
Further you said these programs are indeed implemented rationally and you do look for the root cause. Had you said that from the beginning, we wouldn't have had this wonderful talk and so maybe never gotten to know each other! Fate can be mischievous :)

Free at last! Free at last! Thank God Almighty, we are free at last! (Martin Luther King)
by ValentinD (walentijn arobase free spot franša) on Fri Nov 14th, 2008 at 06:02:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Btw if you read back the phrase you quote, I did not say you changed, but that you nuanced your discourse. That you explained it.

I did not say there are no socieally constructed roles. I say they're not all and always mistaken, and hence not all should be deconstructed, and not in all cases.
Nuance. Tolerance. Going about it rationally, not based on theories like Bourdieu's... (I speak in general here, not criticizing you - you managed to maintain a remarkably balanced tone all through this).

Ok. Some mistaken stereotypes do exist. Do you have an example for which there is clear proof that it is not a matter of women free choice?
You mentioned the bin collecting vs cleaning, I replied that it's the physical force that made the difference in role - and in pay.
We must tackle clearly proven mistaken stereotypes. I don't think motherhood is one, and I do call both examples common sense, or old wisdom.

Free at last! Free at last! Thank God Almighty, we are free at last! (Martin Luther King)

by ValentinD (walentijn arobase free spot franša) on Fri Nov 14th, 2008 at 06:09:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I have just posted a long reply somewhere else in the thread which probably answers some of these.
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Fri Nov 14th, 2008 at 06:13:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Me too. But since I'm through with text searching 200+ posts, here's the short stuff:

To conclude, the earnings of married men and married women are determined in distinctive ways, with married men obtaining a net advantage in terms of the coefficients on the independent variables, even ignoring the intercept term.
This means that not only is there a large, unexplained, discriminatory element in the wage differential for married men and women but that the relevant variables affect earnings in different ways for each group.
The difference in the intercept term could represent discrimination, an unmeasured link between marital status and productivity, or differences in preferences or opportunity costs between sexes.

(from a statistical study published by Oxford and graciously linked in by linca)

Free at last! Free at last! Thank God Almighty, we are free at last! (Martin Luther King)

by ValentinD (walentijn arobase free spot franša) on Fri Nov 14th, 2008 at 06:44:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I was referring to this comment of mine

btw to me this
ValentinD:

This means that not only is there a large, unexplained, discriminatory element in the wage differential

is where I'd take research further to try to figure out what some of the so far unexplained potential discriminatory causes could be.
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Fri Nov 14th, 2008 at 06:49:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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