The European Tribune is a forum for thoughtful dialogue of European and international issues. You are invited to post comments and your own articles.
Please REGISTER to post.
It was a council called for by the Emperor to establish a dogma, which can then be enforced as state religion. (Which he then ditched in older age, but that's another issue.)
Well how about Philip the Fair
You realise that the Avignon Papacy is in no way an example of a separation of church and state... not to mention the assembly of French bishops Philip IV called to support his position in that tax debate.
There was never no ayatollah in Europe.
There was, in the Papal State... but you are confusing Iran with Saudi Arabia there. There is no ayatollah with a political position above the Saudi royals -- nor is there in any other Muslim state other than Iran.
You're theorizing and picking what suits you.
...is what I can tell about you. First you take the only non-Christian in the middle of dozens of mad 4th-century Christian Emperors to prove separation of church and state, then take Iran among dozens of Muslim countries as representative (even while the debate got narrowed down on Saudi Arabia after a previous cherry-pick of yours), and you also cherry-pick Philip IV as a(n ill though-out) 'counter-argument' against the generla practice of royal anointment by clergymen (and the principle of religious justification for feudal power that's behind it).
You don't say a word about parliaments and univesities
I could, but what I said suffices to negate your denial of Saudi-style ties between church and state in Chistian countries.
Parliaments emerged as institutions of the feudal class, and similar institutions existed in the Muslim world, too. Their democratisation coincided with the church's loss of influence (something that happened against its own will and with its active opposition), e.g. for example the French Revolution. Universities on the other hand emerged in a religious context, and for a long time participated in establishing and guarding church dogma. (Their roles in combatting 'heresies' is well known, also for example in the case of Joan of Arc.)
Rule of Law
I did in fact refer to laws. Read back. In fact, the rule of law until not long ago in most places and the Saudi situation today is very similar: it exists in theory, but less in practice, with a fight for its application in courtroom cases. In fact, internationally, the rule of law still doesn't hold -- or else, a lot of kidnapping CIA agents, not to mention Bush et al would sit in prison.)
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
The Avignon papacy and the concordat of Worms are examples that it was the secular power ruling, and not the church, it was the rule of law in the sense that there were written rules and Common Laws in place.
The way you bring the argument to extreme by claiming there is no rule of law today is an exaggeration of the same kind as linca's bringing into discussion the Saudian society.
Because we are not debating all aspects of society, but the relation of the individual (women in particular) with the religious authorities.
The original comment was about the situation of women and mentioning the Saudian society in that context.
I said that this was fallacious argumenting.
The situation of women in Western Europe cannot be compared to that of the women in certain muslim states, like Saudi Arabia - or Iran.
I'd like a few examples of universities, parliaments, or renaissance enlightenment in the Saudian societies. A few links will suffice.
(claiming that they exist and I am the ignorant will not suffice though, I'm beginning to get a bit fed up with lesson giving and patronizing from your side).
Free at last! Free at last! Thank God Almighty, we are free at last! (Martin Luther King)
by Frank Schnittger - Oct 29 8 comments
by Frank Schnittger - Oct 23 90 comments
by ARGeezer - Oct 24 28 comments
by ARGeezer - Oct 22 5 comments
by ATinNM - Oct 19 54 comments
by Frank Schnittger - Oct 19 123 comments
by Frank Schnittger - Oct 11 38 comments
by Frank Schnittger - Oct 8 126 comments
by Frank Schnittger - Oct 298 comments
by ARGeezer - Oct 2428 comments
by Frank Schnittger - Oct 2390 comments
by ARGeezer - Oct 225 comments
by ATinNM - Oct 1954 comments
by Frank Schnittger - Oct 19123 comments
by gmoke - Oct 15
by Frank Schnittger - Oct 1138 comments
by Frank Schnittger - Oct 8126 comments
by Frank Schnittger - Oct 6167 comments
by Frank Schnittger - Oct 135 comments
by IdiotSavant - Sep 286 comments