The overlooked race dimension | 242 comments (242 topical, editorial, 0 hidden)

Re: Seed comment (none / 0)

"eg men are good at maths and women are good at arts and humanities. That kind of assumption in my view is as dangerous"

It's quite unfair to pick that precise example, choosing to forget my complaints (that are very real) about extremely low numbers of women during all my maths/science studies and job path. We didn't want to be just between men, neither in college or uni, nor at work - it's just as boring as being all day long, for years to go, only between women :)

"It usually is not direct and deliberate discrimination but more subtle indirect or institutional discrimination and it becomes much more complex to tackle."

Of course, which is why you don't solve this with policies and laws, but education. I already gave you the example of far-right people still managing to pass a message. At some point, when ugly words are avoided, you go into process of intention, you assume evils and ill will automatically, because it fits some activist mood (or worse, feeds activist funding, or serves some political purpose).

Free at last! Free at last! Thank God Almighty, we are free at last! (Martin Luther King)

by ValentinD (walentijn arobase free spot frança) on Tue Nov 11th, 2008 at 07:09:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Seed comment (none / 1)

It's depressing that these arguments always seem to come down to questions about who earns more and is allowed access to 'proper' jobs.

If you had one gender with a life expectancy ten years shorter than the other gender's, with three times the suicide rate, and which generally had much poorer mental and physical health support, which would you say was being discriminated against?

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Nov 11th, 2008 at 07:26:22 AM EST
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Re: Seed comment (none / 1)

I know some who will respond that the former gender might also happen to lead a more careless kind of lifestyle than the latter, so somehow it gets what it deserves :)

My whole point was precisely against this kind of statistics and generalizations, and then crafting policies to "correct" the lack of "diverseness" or "inequality", none of which is always due to unfair causes.

Free at last! Free at last! Thank God Almighty, we are free at last! (Martin Luther King)

by ValentinD (walentijn arobase free spot frança) on Tue Nov 11th, 2008 at 07:51:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Seed comment (none / 1)

I am an innocent victim of social pressure
You are not assertive enough
They get what they deserve

My point was that the equality industry has very little interest in male experience. If you have a superficial baseline like 'Men earn more' - which is only half true anyway - it ignores more complex questions about quality of life and freedom of choice.

I suspect not all men are truly happy working very long hours, or forcing themselves to be ambitious when they'd rather have a more relaxed approach to life.

There are plenty of surveys tabulating who earns what, but not so many surveys asking what defines that need to earn, and whether it's really as much of a benefit as it seems to be.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Nov 11th, 2008 at 08:25:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Seed comment (none / 1)

Exactly, that was my point too, I just didn't want to focus on men, but speak about the principle of taking such simplistic surveys as the holy word and bringing policies based on that.

The equality industry is not really interested in Equality or fairness, I suspect. Being an industry, like any professional, they pick their favourite cases - usually blacks and women - portray them as "victims of the society", put a lot of pressure on politicians (very sensitive to media exposure and noisy victimization). In the end all this antagonizes honest people and harms minorities and true victims (sometimes women, otherwise men etc).

If I was a civil rights or inequality organisation, I would really worry about a return to traditional values, due to the aggressive and unfair way they promote - or rather impose - their merchandise.

Free at last! Free at last! Thank God Almighty, we are free at last! (Martin Luther King)

by ValentinD (walentijn arobase free spot frança) on Tue Nov 11th, 2008 at 09:33:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Seed comment (4.00 / 2)

There are surveys talking about the need to earn - but there aren't pressure groups defending men ; or rather, there were, and they are called unions. They have lost a lot of their power lately.

And look at Scandinavia, where the solutions that indeed provide the possibility for men to work less - for example the compulsory male parental time off work - have been implemented. The UK's equality industry isn't the only one.

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères

by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Tue Nov 11th, 2008 at 09:48:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Seed comment (none / 0)

People differ in many ways: in gender, talents, preferences. Geographically and ethnically too, physically and intellectually as well. People are equal in rights, not in qualities. You can't compare genders outright, nor can you compare nations. In the northern countries egalitarian moods were always quite more present than in southern Europe - I don't know whether it's ethnical, because of protestantism, or simply the cold winters :) Just like you hear far less women complaining of sexual harrassment in France than in the US (and not because they don't dare to).
Just to say that one can't just transplant solutions regardless of the differences in situations and culture, drawing overarching conclusions from some superficial correlations.

Free at last! Free at last! Thank God Almighty, we are free at last! (Martin Luther King)

by ValentinD (walentijn arobase free spot frança) on Tue Nov 11th, 2008 at 10:36:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Seed comment (4.00 / 3)

Do you have anything to prove your assertion that it is only because they dare not to ? A CDI in France, with all the guarantees it provides - and how hard it is to get -, means people are much less willing to change jobs. Also, there is no class action lawsuit, which makes it much harder to sue for sexual discrimination as has happened in the Walmart case in the US. Finally, studies in France show that a female CV is less likely to be answered.

And saying you can't transplant solution - well, such transplants have been made, and very often. Even France did end up granting women the right to work, despite people arguing until the 30's that France was different and solutions couldn't be transplanted

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères

by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Tue Nov 11th, 2008 at 02:17:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Seed comment (none / 0)

I'm sorry, that's not what I said.

Studies show... ok, I can accept that; did the study look into the causes too, or just inferred automatic sexism and mysoginy?
That's all I'm saying.

Are you denying that northern society is different from the French one, the american one, and the italian one? As is the culture? I can also like the flex-security, even if imported from Denmark. Will it work in France? Let's hope so. What would be the problems in France, compared to Denmark?
If we go into this, we'll debate for weeks.

The point I'm trying to make is that things must be well thought out and carefully checked before launching on state policies and laws.

Free at last! Free at last! Thank God Almighty, we are free at last! (Martin Luther King)

by ValentinD (walentijn arobase free spot frança) on Tue Nov 11th, 2008 at 03:29:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The overlooked race dimension | 242 comments (242 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

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