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I never said that they have no correlation to income. On the contrary, I think it normal that such differences affect salary too - it's the main compensation after all.

As to train or tram drivers, I never denied their responsibility to not start the train while people still getting on and off.
Just the fact that their working conditions would be as dire as their unions (in France) depict them to be.

Free at last! Free at last! Thank God Almighty, we are free at last! (Martin Luther King)

by ValentinD (walentijn arobase free spot frança) on Tue Nov 11th, 2008 at 03:09:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't know about tram drivers, but metro and train drivers are also supposed to be able to do flash repairs on a stuck train, among other things.

Also, you seem to think the 10x difference on income between a nurse and a doctor are normal and fair. They certainly have nothing to do with the fact that the last time nurses went on mass demonstrations, the water guns were fired at them, whereas doctors negotiating with the government while on "strike" (the yearly december strike for specialist doctors is called the "Courchevel Strike" after the french ski resort) have it easier, since very often the minister of health is himself a doctor...

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères

by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Tue Nov 11th, 2008 at 06:49:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I got your point about nurses, but I still refuse your framing of nurses as oppressed women and doctors as authoritarian men. I suspect this is a typically French case of lack of listening one another and abuse of authority. I lean to give more credit to TBG's image of US nurses.

As to drivers, again, my point was about hard work conditions, not responsibility.
These conditions don't compare to those 100 years ago, which was my point all the time (ie, that people today complain much too easy compared to the past).

Free at last! Free at last! Thank God Almighty, we are free at last! (Martin Luther King)

by ValentinD (walentijn arobase free spot frança) on Tue Nov 11th, 2008 at 08:15:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Do women doctors never boss around women nurses? Do women doctors boss women nurses around less than male doctors?

It's easy to end up with a reductio ad absurdum - if you start from the position that there's a homogenous demographic group called 'women' and a different homogenised demographic group called 'men' and that relationships between the two are always stereotyped, and always and exclusively (by implication) solely to the detriment of women, then you end up somewhere indefensible and disconnected from reality.

My point isn't so much about who's bossing who around, but that assessments of value made by the equality industry are largely based on economics - specifically who gets more cash.

This is a non-starter because the whole point of most economic thinking is to increase inequality, not reduce it. So trying to change relationships between gender roles by trying to increase economic status is like driving with the brake on - you may get selective improvements for certain groups, but they will usually be at someone else's expense.

To put it another way - I don't care about women getting into boardrooms, because I don't want boardrooms. And getting people out of boardrooms and into more open and inherently participatory political and economic systems is going to do more for practical equality than adding legal and legislative epicycles to a toxic and unstable system which is likely to implode soon anyway.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Nov 11th, 2008 at 08:56:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Do you know what a strike looked like 100 years ago ? Nowadays, strikers are wimps compared to those of 1900 - that went on strike despite risking to be shot upon. So if that is your point, it is quite wrong.

Care to inform yourself about nurses having it far worse than doctors ? Care to read my argument, which is not that "nurses are oppressed and doctors are authoritarian men" (although your recognised the latter part in admitting bosses were often patronising in France) but that there is a framing that considers nursing to be a subservient, caring, uncreative occupation, which thus doesn't fit the masculine gender ?

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères

by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Tue Nov 11th, 2008 at 08:57:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Nurses having it far worse than doctors has little to do today with societal framing as subservient etc.

Also today I honestly doubt nurses are seen in any of those demeaning ways that you quote - men included. I don't society sees caretaking or humanitarian work in a demeaning way. But that's just MHO.

Men not filling up nurse jobs might not always be due to demeaning views of the profession, but also to not feeling fit for it, purely and simply. I support women emancipation and freedom, but we should try to avoid falling into misandry.

Free at last! Free at last! Thank God Almighty, we are free at last! (Martin Luther King)

by ValentinD (walentijn arobase free spot frança) on Wed Nov 12th, 2008 at 07:22:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Do you ever wonder about why men wouldn't feel fit for it ?

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Wed Nov 12th, 2008 at 07:37:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It is you who should explain that. I personally do not think the profession is seen in a degrading way today.

Free at last! Free at last! Thank God Almighty, we are free at last! (Martin Luther King)
by ValentinD (walentijn arobase free spot frança) on Thu Nov 13th, 2008 at 02:53:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I haven't yet commented on the nurse debate, and don't intend in detail; but I note that I have a relative in the USA who is a nurse, a high-paid one at that, but she did complain especially about the attitude of doctors and that she is not allowed to do certain things even while she knows as much as a doctor -- and thus her goal is to become a doctor.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Thu Nov 13th, 2008 at 06:20:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I did explain, and unlike you I provided arguments, based on other things that my personal opinion.

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Thu Nov 13th, 2008 at 08:23:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You showed reasons of dissatisfaction with the job, not proof that the society views the profession in a demeaning way. Not the same thing.

Free at last! Free at last! Thank God Almighty, we are free at last! (Martin Luther King)
by ValentinD (walentijn arobase free spot frança) on Fri Nov 14th, 2008 at 04:44:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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