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Oh, I didn't have such lofty ambitions in mind as European unity or anything.

McCain would be good for Europe in a very narrow way.

McCain will have zero expectation for Europe and vice-and-versa. More of the same shit, no change in direction, no hub-hub, same old spite. Each side its own way. The US careening into militaristic decay and economic irrelevance and Europe muddling around in its usual little dance: one step forward, two steps backward, four on the side.

With Democrats on the other hand, the expectations are going to be very high, at least on the American side. They're gonna turn towards Europe and expect to be back in the game as if nothing happened. Delusions of American Exceptionalism are very strong and in my opinion resurgent among Democrats. I can already picture Obama flying in European capitals, all proud and shining of his brand new "historical" victory, the "New JFK" and the second coming of Holy Ronald Reagan all rolled in one, and explaining in grand rhetorical flourishes how everything is going to get better thanks to American Leadership(TM). They really believe that shit.

Well, I expect European opinions to lap it up - to a point - but with governments, it's not gonna play well at all. Both sides are not talking the same language. Atlanticism is dead because all the Atlantists from the post-war era are dead. And after 8 years of Bush glaciation, a lot of old habits have died and there wasn't a lot to said for the old habits in the first place. May be you forgot but it was already pretty rough with Clinton. Even if the Bush disaster makes that period positively look like heavens, things were not going well at all between the US and Europe. It was actually pretty tense and bitter.

The Clinton I team managed to be both totally inept and perfectly cynical with Europe. Their bully number worked for them in some ways. Well, it's not going to get better. 15 years later, Americans still believe they are calling the shots like in the 90s.

I don't expect anything good from Clinton but no much bad either. Same cast as before. With Obama, well, we have a situation. The potential for a complete misunderstanding is pretty phenomenal. His style and the expectations he's setting in his campaign are going to be a big liability in relations with Europe. And then there is this little business with the Senate Foreign Relations Committee's Subcommittee on European Affairs where he just spent the last year broadcasting that he doesn't give a shit about Europe.

There is plenty of nasty business to sort out: the Euro/Dollar relation, the contagion of the US financial meltdown in Europe, military cooperation in Afghanistan, the mess in Iraq (if the US thinks they are going to be able to just walk away ...), global warming, trade with China, oil supply security, Israel, etc., etc., etc.

Everything has been put on ice with Bush. There's no one to talk to anyway. McCain would continue the trend and Europe would have to grab its own arse and solve its problem on its own, the usual messy, ineffective way but its own way. At least, high-level trans-Atlantic relations won't get worse - they are inexistent - and everybody on each side will still be able to dream of the day everything gets better.

But if a Dem is elected, no more forlorn longings of sweet hope. It's show-time. All the shit is going to come out, with a severe misperception of the respective positions. The US is going to need very active help from Europe to clean up the shit. On the other hand, Europe can perfectly do nothing - out of disorganization or out of sheer passive-aggressive spite - and watch the US take the brunt of the crap while keeping the upper hand by default. No European unity is needed. It doesn't even need to be deliberate. All that Europe needs to do to gain relative power and influence against the US and in the world is to sit on its hands. No one will win. But in the mess, Europe will take its lump and still come up on top of a hugely diminished US. A lot of Europeans would be very content with that.

I'm not sure there is anyone who fully understand that last point in Washington DC. They still don't realize that the world has changed and that they don't have the luxury of taking anything for granted anymore. Yet, from what I see with the Democrats, they still waxing lyricals on American Leadership(TM) and the Natural, God Ordained and Self-Evident Goodness of America. After 8 years of Bush, they still don't have a clue and they are supposed to be to the good guys.

Unless there is a very cool head in the US executive to impose a very, very modest tone within the American side, the landing in Europe is gonna be very rough.

So I'm wondering if no landing at all is not a better solution. It would let four more years for reality to sink in.

by Francois in Paris on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 12:01:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
François, this text of yours must become a diary. its full of juice.

I think any of the frontpagers can copy and promote it to diary. Migeru and Colman have done it regularly in the past. (You too can do it, of course.)

Just find a title that fits the scope. Do not include any candidate's name in the title.

by findmeaDoorIntoSummer on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 12:19:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Nope. It's just a rant.
by Francois in Paris on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 01:52:54 AM EST
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This was the best analysis ever presented on ET on one of the most important events of the year. rant or no rant.
by findmeaDoorIntoSummer on Wed Feb 20th, 2008 at 12:24:55 PM EST
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If you can read German, you may find  this interesting. Klau is complaining, that Hillary has no idea, what Europeans (Germans) really think and how strong the bitterness in Europe really is about the US.
Just that you know it is not just France :-)

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers
by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 12:29:15 AM EST
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has been permanently destroyed.  

Repugs don't care and would not try.  

The 20th century truly was the American Century.  But eight years into the 21st, initiative has been squandered and has passed out of American hands.

But guess who will be the last to figure this out.  

The Fates are kind.

by Gaianne on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 03:07:13 AM EST
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Well, don't take it for fully granted. USA, with all its faults, still has a terrific hand (remember its -huge, admittedly- debt is in dollars, and anyway it is too strong militarily for creditors to be too pushy, the English language still is a massive trump, as is the dominance of US law in business, giving lots of work to US consulting and law firms...).

It is misplaying that hand with a vengeance, true, and at the moment it's tough to see a way back. But it's not that long ago that we could not easily see how the initiative would get away from USA.

With a truly progressive policy of healthcare, education for all and reductions of inequalities, coupled with a massive national infrastructure program to improve energy self-sufficiency, therefore reduce military spending and probably get massive market shares in the sustainable development market that is bound to appear one day (or else...), they could achieve a lot. Besides, they would have the luxury of being able to decide when the said markets appear. Almost at the press of a button.

They still have massive assets. But all of them, to be used, will require reversing the crazy ideology that has been paraded for 40 years.

Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need, but not every man's greed. Gandhi

by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 03:23:52 AM EST
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The US have great assets and, correctly managed, it has all the potential to restore itself as the top superpower by far. It has space, material resources, an extensive infrastructure in poor shape but that can be fixed, a lot of nice left-overs from its industrial glory days, and, above all, it has a great demography, very balanced compared to the rest of the world.

But I don't see the US military "strength" as an asset but rather as a severe liability. It's a parasite on the economy and the government and, by maintaining the illusion of strength, it's a major roadblock obstacle on the USA #1 priority : reconnection with reality.

by Francois in Paris on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 01:46:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
With a truly progressive policy of healthcare, education for all and reductions of inequalities, coupled with a massive national infrastructure program to improve energy self-sufficiency, therefore reduce military spending and probably get massive market shares in the sustainable development market that is bound to appear one day (or else...), they could achieve a lot.  

Theoretically, a reversal of policy could achieve much, until you consider that the reasons the US abandoned sustainable energy policy in 1980 are the same reasons it will not go back to it now.  It is crucial to note that there is not enough sustainable energy in any form to power our civilization;  sustainable energy implies the RADICAL transformation of that civilization, including not just conservation and reduction of resource use, but the end of capitalism and debt-based money.  

Meanwhile, practically speaking, the window is closing:  Year 2008 may well be the year when the US is revealed as bankrupt.  After that, nothing will be done.  

The Fates are kind.

by Gaianne on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 04:15:52 PM EST
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Well, you talk as if Vietnam never happened, the Paris riots, etc.

I lived in Europe during the Reagan era.

This is the nadir with Bush, but I don't see a huge change. There never was a deep pro-US sentiment in Europe. Not in my time in Europe anyway.

by Upstate NY on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 11:02:14 AM EST
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Thanks for your obsevations.  

I remember Vietnam, and left it out for reasons of simplicity.  But you are right:  As early as the 1970s  one could see that the American Century would likely be ending, in effect by choice.  

There is indeed a progression from there to the atrocities of this century, and disenchantment has been a gradual process with many events along the way.  

The Fates are kind.

by Gaianne on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 04:20:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Here it is rather convincing written that Washington all the time expected the Europeans to follow.
An exerpt:
"Europeans, I was told, always loudly disagree with US proposals but, in the end, whether it be expanding NATO or recognizing an independent Kosovo, will acquiesce to what America insists upon. At the same time, the US can continue to have fundamental disagreements with its European partners over matters such as climate change policy or international law without causing any major damage to the relationship."

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers
by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 05:03:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Well, I expect European opinions to lap it up - to a point - but with governments, it's not gonna play well at all. Both sides are not talking the same language. Atlanticism is dead because all the Atlantists from the post-war era are dead.

My expectation is that governments will believe the shit a lot more than the population. Our governments will bend over backwards to try to please the new president, and to try to forget about past contentious issues, while the population will be a lot more doubtful.

Don't forget as well that it will be Sarkozy and Brown in the lead...

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 03:26:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I have the hauts fonctionnaires in mind more than the elective clowns.

And if you are correct about the population, then it's good news we have Sarkozy. With his polls in the crapper, that ADD weathervane will do whatever pleases the electorate.

by Francois in Paris on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 01:47:09 PM EST
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I agree with DoDo and Jérôme and Martin on Atlanticism being "undead". I also agree with findmeaDoorintoSummer that this should be a diary. But this will be the 23rd comment under the "rant" so a diary now would require people to cross-post their comments.

ET 2.0 feature request: the ability to "detach" or "clone" a comment as an article. One can abstract a diary as just a child of the "home" root-node, like a comment is a child of another comment, or a diary.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Feb 20th, 2008 at 12:45:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The European Commission staff don't have any illusions about working with the US. I am not sure the same can be said of the Commissioners or other political (as opposed to technocratic) appointees. The same is probably true of EU-15 diplomatic corps and politicians. On the new member states, I don't know. It appears their bubble hasn't popped yet.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Feb 20th, 2008 at 12:47:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]


The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill
by r------ on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 01:47:36 PM EST
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Great rant, but I disagree. I don't see Atlanticism dead. Just yesterday on Kosovo we saw how undead the monster is.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 06:01:07 AM EST
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I know you've said this is simply a rant, but really you should post this as a diary. There was another one on "which USian candidate would be best for Europe" already, but yours really puts it in terms which describe the evolution of the relationship and real supranational European interest.

And you almost got me thinking I'd better vote McCain. After all, I won't be in the US to suffer the consequences!

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 12:50:33 PM EST
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And you almost got me thinking I'd better vote McCain. After all, I won't be in the US to suffer the consequences!

Okay, but only if you take me with you.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 01:01:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, you've already escaped England so you know how to do it.


The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill
by r------ on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 01:12:33 PM EST
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I know, but I'd be hesitant to return after your bit on eel dishes of mass destruction.  I hadn't heard about that.  Paris, maybe.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 01:18:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Please, don't vote McCain.

Even if I can always go back home, I still live in the US :)

by Francois in Paris on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 01:56:06 PM EST
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long ago...

Actually, I do have to get round to getting an absentee ballot so that I will be able to vote.

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 02:04:08 PM EST
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I'll join the piling on and say that this is a good rant.

I still disagree with much of it, for instance, I think the concept of relative power is completely alien from our requirements as citizens. For my part, I called Obama "the best, the most challenging and the most dangerous candidate" in this diary and I'm a lot more worried about the scenario where he doesn't get the necessary reality check from Europe (because then we'll likely be fighting another ill-considered war together).

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 02:53:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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