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I think your point about reduced expectations is correct. I am reminded of the essay you posted in your Sharia and human rights essay

He probably thinks his "tolerance" for Shariah is progressive in light of the Islamophobia that mars parts of Europe today. But it is a tolerance that condones only the most conservative options for Muslims. It is at best a form of the racism of lower expectations - the cheapest bargaining chip of liberal guilt..............

That said, I have often been shocked at the level of ignorance from British elected representatives about even British current events. They seem to simply live in a bubble where all information is filtered unless it is directly relevant to the "issue of the moment" and they have so little contact with the real world that they have next to no chance of discovering any other view apart from the permitted one. I'm sure something similar happens in Brussels, so the EU rep you met would be typical.

Equally, I think that, reduced expectations notwithsatnding, there is a certain trepidation that muslim countries have internal undemocratic pressures which mean that any democracy, however flawed, is better than applying pressure that may end up being couter-productive.

There is, for instance, a significant strand within islamist thought that democracy is incompatible with islam. Now, while that is untrue, without considerable pushback from religious authorities this view is being propagated to the potential electorate and is causing problems for the very idea of democracy in certain countries. Quite how the muslim brotherhood square this one I don't know.

Europeans are confused by the differing attitudes of muslims to political processes and, knowing only that mistakes cause offence, seek to do as little as possible.


keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Feb 26th, 2008 at 12:11:42 PM EST
My Sharia and human rights essay?  That one was In Wales, not me.

There is, for instance, a significant strand within islamist thought that democracy is incompatible with islam.

Uh, not terribly significant, no, not in terms of numbers or dominant schools of thought.  Most Muslims do in fact reject the Salafist school of thought on that, and on most other things.  In my experience, the people who think of Islam as incompatible with democracy tend not to be Muslims.

Quite how the muslim brotherhood square this one I don't know.

The Muslim Brotherhood says it is fully committed to democracy.  What we don't know is whether they mean it.

What we do know is this:  Despite being officially banned in Egypt (which raises significant barriers to electoral participation) and despite the fact that Egyptian elections are farcical at best, it has participated in every election since 1990.  (It boycotted in 1990 in protest against an unfair electoral system, but had been taking part in previous elections since the 1970s, when they renounced violence.)

Every election, there are waves of arrests of Brotherhood members; at the moment, there are more than 500 of them in detention because there's a municipal election in a less than six weeks.  Every election, the systemic barriers to their participation and success are raised still higher.  (In the Shura Council election last year, the repression and fraud were so complete that they didn't manage to win a single seat, despite having won 20 percent of the seats in the lower house of parliament a year earlier.)  Every election, they keep participating.

The Brotherhood is aware that its legitimacy among the people derives in part from its commitment to the democratic process, flawed as it is here.  It is a tremendously diverse organization, with leaders that are moderate and those who are less so.  The regime is pressuring the Brotherhood in an effort to marginalize the moderates, because they need the so-called West to be afraid of the Islamists.  They need the Brotherhood to be a scarecrow.

Genuine democracy might indeed bring groups such as these to power.  Genuine democracy might also quite possibly remove them from power.  The expectations for adherence to genuine democracy should not change depending on the results.  One looks rather absurdly hypocritical when one demands that an Islamist party act like perfect democrats, when one is not willing to expect the same of the so-called "secular" parties.

Something the so-called "West" has never seemed to learn is that the steadfast support of fundamentally corrupt, repressive and undemocratic regimes only strengthens the resolve and popularity of the Islamist alternatives.  If they really want the so-called "secularists" to triumph, they'd be better off backing the Islamists.

Would I want to live in a country run by the Muslim Brotherhood?  No, probably not, at least not if I didn't have a foreign passport that would allow me to leave whenever I wanted.  But if the democratic system were working properly here, I really do believe that they amount of super-conservatism that their most conservative leaders would be able to impose here would be limited -- limited by civil society, limited by popular lack of desire for such sweeping changes.  But nobody has ever encouraged the development or strengthening of such a system here, so yes, the "spectre" of "a Brotherhood government" feels somewhat more intimidating.

Again, this is why supporting institutions and the democratic system should be the goal, rather than supporting parties or individual leaders who are allegedly ideologically aligned to us....

by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Tue Feb 26th, 2008 at 04:01:23 PM EST
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I'd certainly agree that our willingness to support for "despots" and other sundry abusive governments encourages the very elements we'd prefer didn't exist. But then again, like your suggestion that moderate islamic groups are marginalised to increase the scarecrow effect of the more extreme elements of the mulsim brotherhood, one only has to look at Israel where the IDF generally target those who might be acceptable to encourage the sense of militant outrage amongst palestinians. If you eliminate anyone who will negotiate, you don't seem so intransigent by later refusing to meet those who won't.

In my experience, the people who think of Islam as incompatible with democracy tend not to be Muslims.

I'm sure their view is that those who don't agree with them cannot be muslims. It's the nature of religious belief to exclude any who might disagree and become "holier than thou".


keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Wed Feb 27th, 2008 at 08:10:57 AM EST
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I'm sure their view is that those who don't agree with them cannot be muslims.

I'm not sure who "they" are that you're referring to.  The Salafis?  Yes, we have established that they think basically nobody is really Muslim except them, but they are also very decidedly a minority.  I think you're misunderstanding my point, which is that the people I most often hear saying things about Islam being incompatible with democracy are Islam-bashers and Islamophobes.

by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Wed Feb 27th, 2008 at 11:08:09 AM EST
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