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Value is definable only in relational terms.  

Well, maybe not.  Everything we value has low entropy that we can make use of (though not everything that has low entropy has value for us).  

No animal can sustain itself by eating its own excrement--the excrement is a degraded, low-entropy output of the animal's life processes--though some animals (like bacteria and dung beetles) have evolved to eat the low-entropy outputs of others.  

I'm suggesting that a metaphysics of value has to account for two things:

Some values are relative.  You like pictures of Elvis painted on velvet, and I like poster-sized copies of impressionist paintings, and my friend won't stand to have any reproductions hanging in his house at all.  Each of these is "low entropy"--a bit of organized matter (not decayed pulp and faded ink or paint)--but we each value what we like, and wouldn't pay money for the other.  This is the subjective part of value, and why it's true to say that not all low entropy has value for us.  (Poisonous mushrooms are "low entropy," but they don't have value for us either.)  

But some values are objective.  Everyone prefers food that has not been eaten to food that has already passed through another person's digestive system.  A gallon of gasoline is more valuable than the exhaust, waste heat, and water vapor you produce when you burn it.  Coal is more valuable than ashes.  High grade ores are more valuable than low grade ores, and concentrated ingots of metal you can produce from them (with additional inputs of energy) are more valuable than either.  Low entropy is the physical basis of value.  

Subject, object, neatly united in one metaphysics.  

There are many great intellects out there: all they need is a new set of assumptions, and off they go.

Check out the assumptions of the emergent field of Ecological Economics.  This is the field in which you'll find Nicholas Georgescu-Roegen, whose "The Entropy Law and the Economic Process" stands as this field's equivalent to Smith's "Wealth of Nations."  It's a paradigm that accepts that economic activity is not exempt from the laws of thermodynamics; and that, in fact, in the absence of entropy, we'd have no need for a science of economics, since every good thing ever made would still exist, and we could push cars backwards to fill their gas tanks.  They don't and we can't; therefore, we experience scarcity; therefore, there's a niche for the science of thinking rationally and carefully about how to satisfy human wants with scarce means.  No entropy, no scarcity; no scarcity, no economists.  Entropy makes economists useful; it's a shame that more of them haven't returned the favor.  

My diary contains a few citations leading to more info about this field.  Minds are working in it.

Industrial society is not sustainable. Unsustainable systems change--or disappear.

by Eric Zencey (Eric dot Zencey at UVM dot EDU) on Wed Mar 12th, 2008 at 05:46:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Eric Zencey:
Some values are relative.

Pirsig's approach - which I follow - is that all Value (or Quality) is relative, and definable only in relative terms, by reference to criteria or benchmarks.

Your approach is to use entropy as a criterion or benchmark for Value and indeed you identify "low" entropy as valuable, as distinct from "high" entropy.

So low entropy (however defined and measured) is relatively more valuable than high entropy.

I am not familiar with this approach, but it does have appeal. Nevertheless it is an approach which requires a "Value judgment" - which may be subjective or objective.

ie yours is, again, a "Subject/Object" Metaphysics.

A "Metaphysics of Quality" (or of Value - it's the same reality being addressed)is IMHO a completely different approach, and Pirsig's work repays reading, or re-reading, in understanding it.

"The future is already here -- it's just not very evenly distributed" William Gibson

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Wed Mar 12th, 2008 at 07:45:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's the book that "woke me from my dogmatic slumbers," to quote Hume (I think) reading Rousseau (I think).  

And it's a very powerful, romantic story--lone wolf tracking a powerful idea, standing fast against conformity, smug self-satisfaction, and sheer hermetic wrong-headedness.  It's been an exemplar for me.

But I do think that the thermodynamic point of view has something to offer.  Not that I would replace a "labor theory of value" or a "socially constructed" (i.e. neoclassical economic, utility-based) "theory of value" with a "thermodynamic theory of value."  Low entropy doesn't capture all of what we (humans) mean by "value."  But that persepctive has a lot to show us; and one implication seems to be, that value has an irreducibly objective component.  There's simply no way that the valuation of cast metal as being more valuable than the ore from which it was made is a subjective valuation; the former has lower entropy than the latter, and low entropy is always and everywhere prized above high entropy.

Industrial society is not sustainable. Unsustainable systems change--or disappear.

by Eric Zencey (Eric dot Zencey at UVM dot EDU) on Thu Mar 13th, 2008 at 12:27:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
As I said, your approach appeals to me, and I think that while maybe entropy is a quality, it is not   Quality itself.

"The future is already here -- it's just not very evenly distributed" William Gibson
by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Thu Mar 13th, 2008 at 05:16:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Entropy is a quantity.

It'd be nice if the battle were only against the right wingers, not half of the left on top of that — François in Paris
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Mar 13th, 2008 at 06:06:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
ChrisCook:

So low entropy (however defined and measured) is relatively more valuable than high entropy.

I am not familiar with this approach, but it does have appeal. Nevertheless it is an approach which requires a "Value judgment" - which may be subjective or objective.

It doesn't matter whether "it has appeal" or not because it is actually the basis of energy technology.

You cannot extract all the energy out of a physical system. All you can do is extract what is called the "free energy" but which might be better called "usable energy". And the usable energy of a system is its energy content minus the temperature times its entropy content.

So low-entroy matter can be turned into high-entropy matter at a net energy gain. That is, in fact, the only way to get any energy.

Low-entropy energy from the Sun is radiated away into space as high-entropy heat. This would happen even if the Earth was a lifeless rock. Life (and the economy) feeds of this entropy flow by taking as much of the "free energy" as possible and turning it into structure rather than let it be lost as heat.

Whether things should have a value proportional to their "free energy" content is a different story, and they probably shouldn't.

It'd be nice if the battle were only against the right wingers, not half of the left on top of that — François in Paris

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Mar 13th, 2008 at 06:05:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Migeru:
So low-entroy matter can be turned into high-entropy matter at a net energy gain. That is, in fact, the only way to get any energy.

Hmmm...so how does fission/fusion and e=mc squared come into it then?

"The future is already here -- it's just not very evenly distributed" William Gibson

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Thu Mar 13th, 2008 at 11:32:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Radiation has a higher entropy content than matter.

It'd be nice if the battle were only against the right wingers, not half of the left on top of that — François in Paris
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Mar 20th, 2008 at 09:58:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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