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Frank Schnittger:
Arguing that the state has a duty to act in the interests of its citizens is hardly communism, is it?

That's the key point, and it's the proverbial dead wildebeest on the table - economic exclusion isn't just an attack on personal prosperity, it's a denial of citizenship.

As Clinton keeps implying - some people don't matter. To the extremists on Wall St and in Washington, no one matters. Other people certainly aren't equal participants in the 'unreal economy' - they're useful chattels who can be robbed and then disposed of when no longer needed.

This is about bedrock democracy, not just cash flow.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu Mar 20th, 2008 at 07:50:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The US is a post-democratic state - implicitly so since Reagan or maybe Carter; explicitly so since Dubya.

The language has been so corrupted that it is hard to imagine a political discourse where your points could be made.  In contrast to the USSR and Orwell's state, the US elite have privatized the debasement of language - with awe-inspiring results.  Our mainstream "media" are poisonous.

by cambridgemac on Thu Mar 20th, 2008 at 09:56:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think it was Eleanor Roosevelt who said that "no one can make you inferior without your permission".  My problem is that American citizens appear to have colluded in their debasement - quite why I do not know:  Perhaps misplaced loyalty to their founding myths, perhaps nostalgia for a simpler time when social mobility through hard work was a reality for many, perhaps a perverted religious piety.  But you can only take blaming the MSM so far.  At the end of the day people have to buy into that sort of stuff, and if they stop listening ad stop watching and turn to the internet and other sources of information the MSM have a problem.  And what the hell is a "post-democratic state" anyway?  You have to buy into that debasement of democracy for it to be possible.  Most Americans have an amazingly positive "CAN-DO" attitude to life.  It's time they really did democracy and did for the plutocrats.

"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Thu Mar 20th, 2008 at 01:29:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Roosevelt never spent time in Abu Grahib or Guantanamo.

Of course people can make you feel inferior without your permission. People aren't hermetically sealed psychological objects, with perfect freedom of action.

Subject any culture to a propagandistic noise machine, cut education, eliminate outside sources of news, repeat talking points tens of times every day, play up baser instincts and ridicule or scorn kindness and collective responsibility, and you'll be able to turn almost any barbarity into common wisdom.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Fri Mar 21st, 2008 at 08:22:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I agree and yet I beg to differ.  You added the word "feel" to my quotation.  Of course people can make you feel inferior.  What Eleanor Roosevelt was saying was that at the end of the day you have to take responsibility for your own life - and blaming the MSM, the political system, the jobs situation etc. - while all having a degree of validity - is ultimately a cop out.  And remember when she said those words - the memory of Slavery was a lot more recent, and racial segregation and discrimination was the order of the day.

The Black Consciousness movement in the US and in South Africa under Apartheid was all about not accepting the dominant (white) definition of who and what you are.  And yes it isn't easy.  Torture and discrimination were rife in both instances.  But most American's haven't been to Abu Grahib or Guantanamo either, and the deprivations they endure are nothing in comparison to what many peoples have endured in many countries subjected to imperialism and war.

In fact the US is almost uniquely privileged in that it  has had over 150 years of relative peace, with no major war fought on its soil, no foreign domination or exploitation.  It ill befits the American people to now play the victim, 9/11 notwithstanding, and I for one think they are a much greater people than that.  They have brought an amazing inventiveness and energy to many fields of science and commerce.  It is time they addressed the obvious flaws in their polity with equal energy and vision.

We do them no favours by asking any less of them.

"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Fri Mar 21st, 2008 at 09:00:53 AM EST
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