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Since it's already working in the upper Great Plains, and since the landowners like it, and since they don't get ripped off, and since it's great for the grid, and since the same economies of scale are provided by centralized financing, construction, O&M... what exactly are your problems?

It's not going to work for long. Wall Street will take care of it.

That's what you don't get. If you accept this kind of small scale, privately financed developments, you accept Wall Street. If it's private, Wall Street will clean its clock as soon the opportunity comes. At the slightest difficulty, they will come with their bridge loans, their convertible bonds and their PIPEs.

The point of a public monopoly is to tell the market and the finance guys to fuck off once for all, to tell them "not for you", not for short termer greedy assholes. Too important to let them fuck with it.

And every time the libertarian/autonomist wing on the left goes on those "small is beautiful" "local, yeah!" crusades, they end up validating free-market ideology, throwing good government in a vicious circle of decay and incompetence and giving sweet, juicy little targets for Wall Street to make a quick buck at everybody's expense.

There are certain things where the optimal solution is big gov and public ownership. It'd be nice if this battle was only against the right wingers, not half of the left on top of that.

In the meantime, US health care sucks, US energy sucks, US railways suck, US basic education sucks (arhh, local school boards! Please, someone abolish them ...), US telecoms suck, US cable sucks, US highways are full of potholes and US bridges are falling in the river. The US is turning in a 3rd world country and it's going to go that way as long it doesn't understand that capitalism and private ownership are perfect for manufacturing shoes but are a fucking disaster when it comes to running a country.

In a just world, your public monopolies are benevolent.  In the US, they almost never were.  In actual fact, the federally granted utility monopolies were predatory to the nth degree.  In fact, the then largest US utility began by taking over small hydro projects in the Sierra Nevada at gunpoint.

AFAIK, save for TVA, those were not public monopolies but state-sponsored private monopolies. A public monopoly has only one shareholder, the government, and in practice, none if it is setup as an independent agency.

by Francois in Paris on Mon Mar 3rd, 2008 at 07:27:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It'd be nice if the battle were only against the right wingers, not half of the left on top of that

Can I steal that line?

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Mar 3rd, 2008 at 07:33:23 PM EST
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Mig, steal everything you want.

I see you've just promoted PES's nuclear diary. You really want a food fight, do you :>

by Francois in Paris on Mon Mar 3rd, 2008 at 07:37:20 PM EST
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Stolen.

It'd be nice if the battle were only against the right wingers, not half of the left on top of that — François in Paris
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Mar 8th, 2008 at 07:21:48 AM EST
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Francois in Paris:

It's not going to work for long. Wall Street will take care of it.

That's what you don't get. If you accept this kind of small scale, privately financed developments, you accept Wall Street. If it's private, Wall Street will clean its clock as soon the opportunity comes. At the slightest difficulty, they will come with their bridge loans, their convertible bonds and their PIPEs.

Hmmm...

I think what you maybe miss is that Wall Street is fucked.

Period. Peak Credit.

The only clock they'll be cleaning is the one in their kitchen.

"The future is already here -- it's just not very evenly distributed" William Gibson

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Mon Mar 3rd, 2008 at 07:58:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Don't worry. They'll come back. They always do.

If you'd run a "where are they now" on all the Enron geniuses, there's a handful in jail but I don't think there are many burger flippers in the remaining cast.

How do you spell "hedge funds"?

E . N . R . O . N

Cheers !

by Francois in Paris on Mon Mar 3rd, 2008 at 08:56:41 PM EST
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Of course the bright people in need of an ethics transplant go where the money is, and that's hedge funds.

But hedge funds don't CREATE money like Banks do, they just punt it around, and the Bank prime brokerages cream them as they do.

That doesn't mean we haven't reached Peak Credit (and therefore Wall Street is fucked) - in fact it supports the thesis.

And anyway - how many Hedge Funds are on Wall Street ?!!

"The future is already here -- it's just not very evenly distributed" William Gibson

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Tue Mar 4th, 2008 at 06:21:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But hedge funds don't CREATE money like Banks do, they just punt it around, and the Bank prime brokerages cream them as they do.

Don't worry, everybody takes its cut. And if they don't, they walk away and start over. And when they loose, to quote the immortal words of George Parr, it's not them who will suffer, it's your pension fund.


by Francois in Paris on Tue Mar 4th, 2008 at 06:36:16 PM EST
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private ownership are perfect for manufacturing shoes but are a fucking disaster when it comes to running a country.

that is so true...

'economic growth' is great for getting peasants running water, schools, hospitals, good transport links, internet access, solar panels etc. at the 'bottom end' of the food chain.

the same system taken to its absurd level, we see bitter fruit now in the ponzi scheme enronisation of huge wodges of public trust finance, which should be in the hands of low-risk, honourable, sober treasurers, not rabid yuppie gamblers' anonymous predators who, when weighing human against economic costs, always come down in favour of the latter, chewing up finite planetary resources, homogenising and de-skilling ancient cultures and spitting out misery for the many, and a gilded cage of paranoia for the few.

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Mon Mar 3rd, 2008 at 08:54:10 PM EST
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If you accept this kind of small scale, privately financed developments, you accept Wall Street. If it's private, Wall Street will clean its clock as soon the opportunity comes. At the slightest difficulty, they will come with their bridge loans, their convertible bonds and their PIPEs.

None of this happened in the local ownership and small-scale-project dominated wind 'market' in Germany, Denmark and Netherlands, and the German PV 'market' even more so. What's more, outside of the USA, private finance can also work on a large scale, with large local regional monopolist private owners of both grid and generating capacity, e.g. Germany until 1998. If you want to paint with a single brush, we could say that nothing works under the Anglo Disease, be it state-funded projects or distributed power with distributed ownership.

But, as someone supporting distributed power with distributed ownership, yet opposes any rail privatisation, I am not one who sees the same solution everywhere.

In the power sector, I do support centralised state ownership of the grid, as well as centralised state ownership or at least coercive coordination of establishing reserve capacities. The state should also be in control of energy policy, and a feed-in law is a (strong) tool of energy policy.

Wind farms, and renewables in general, are not for short-term greedy assholes, unless the financing structure is very fucked up. Local farmers aren't in for it on the short term, either.

To supplement Crazy Horse, the suggestion of parochialism is off also because of the intermittency of most renewables including wind, thus linking up in a coordinated grid is essential. Against your economies of scale is the factor of redundancy and grid stability, while distributed power is not without economies of scale (it is in fields not connected to turbine ownership, manufacture and maintenance).

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Mar 4th, 2008 at 05:01:07 AM EST
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