LQD: Monbiot: Meat a worse crime than biofuels. | 102 comments (102 topical, editorial, 0 hidden)

I just know there's a bike made of bones somewhere.

But you could have used the resources to make the bike to do something useful for someone starving in some part of the world. QED.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Apr 16th, 2008 at 04:37:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bove on 4 verites (none / 1)

Perhaps you have statistics on the amount of resources it takes to build a bicyle, and can compare that to the resource savings produced by using a bicycle rather than motorized transit powered by fossil fuels?

Otherwise, I utterly fail to see your point.

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Wed Apr 16th, 2008 at 04:41:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bove on 4 verites (none / 0)

If you're powering a bycicle with a meat based diet, I wonder how environmentally friendly bycicles actually are?

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Wed Apr 16th, 2008 at 05:39:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bove on 4 verites (4.00 / 4)

That I am not, and honestly I don't know any who compete who actually do.

It's not a healthy diet, really, especially the nasty cholesterol-laden protein you get from industrial-raised livestock, research on which is in nascent stages.

Linda McCartney's race team was quite competitive on an all vegetarian diet, the jury's out on what sorts of proteins are the best; but either way, the average man in western europe certainly doesn't need more than 200 grams of protein or so per day taking as average a 180cm man at 75kg as roughly average. Add to this a supplement for recovery in the case of athletes (which most people I know, including me, take in combination with a complex carb base mixed with whey solids, so not exactly meat) and you are about right for diet needs.

And not all of that protein need come from meat sources.

I'm not saying being a vegetarian makes you a saint, and for the record i'm not a vegetarian. But McBouffe is not only bad for you, it is unsustainable.

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Wed Apr 16th, 2008 at 06:04:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bove on 4 verites (4.00 / 6)

There seems to be a confusion between four different issues here: environment, sustainability, health, and taste.

The last is just that - for those of us who love the taste of meat and dairy it's a pointless exercize.

Health - not really my main concern, and just like you can put together a veggie diet that is healthy, you can do the same for a non-veggie one.

environment - like so much else, both animal and non-animal products can be produced in a more or less environmentally friendly way.

sustainability - that's the big one. But no, I don't feel particularly guilty.

My philosophy is to make those sustainability/environmental choices which are cause less inconvenience to me or, ideally, which I actually prefer, rather than make huge sacrifices (in the subjective sense). So I have no car, I live in a densely packed city, relying on walking and mass transit exclusively, and I tend to eat local organic stuff to the extent I can afford to. And I suspect that's what most of us do.

by MarekNYC on Wed Apr 16th, 2008 at 06:20:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bove on 4 verites (4.00 / 4)

We are agitating for local farmer's markets in our town. We are surrounded by farms, but nobody carries local produce except on special fair days about 4 times a year. This is where you buy the garlic jam and marinade mushrooms that'll get you through the winter.

I don't quite understand the economics. Why don't we see a full range of produce? Supply and demand, I guess.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Wed Apr 16th, 2008 at 06:29:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bove on 4 verites (4.00 / 2)

The core consumers are the environmental types, the health nuts, and the obsessive foodies like me. New York's got plenty of all, often combined. I've got two local greenmarkets (i.e. within easy walking distance) and then there's the main one at Union Square in Manhattan - that I visit in its Saturday incarnation when I feel like a trip to foodie heaven. One nice thing is that they don't just supply produce - meat, fish, dairy - all there. On the down side the produce selection is rather limited from late fall through mid spring and none of this stuff is cheap.

by MarekNYC on Wed Apr 16th, 2008 at 06:36:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Obsessive foodies ;-) (4.00 / 2)

In some ways I become a different person when shopping for food. Price goes out the window, and I am happy to chat inanely with vendors about arcane food matters. Food shopping is the only shopping I enjoy. Everything else is just logiistics.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Wed Apr 16th, 2008 at 06:44:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obsessive foodies ;-) (4.00 / 2)

For me it's food, cooking equipment, and books. Clothes and shoes - yuck, get twitchy just thinking about it - probably why I tend to put it off until they've literally fallen to pieces.

by MarekNYC on Wed Apr 16th, 2008 at 07:00:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obsessive foodies ;-) (none / 1)

This I can dig. I designed my kitchen like a sushi bar so guests have to sit and talk to me rather than going off into another room and laughing about things I can't follow.

Right behind the counter is Lundia shelving which holds all the things I need when I am cooking (hardware/software) - within arm's reach. Between the counter and the back shelves is quite narrow - maybe 7500 mm. That is where I hold court, and to where only my closest friends dare to invade ;-) (although bartenders seem to instinctively gravitate there - one told me that he feels safer behind the counter)

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Wed Apr 16th, 2008 at 07:19:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obsessive foodies ;-) (none / 1)

7500mm, narrow ?!? (says the Paris 35 square meters appartment inhabitant)

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères

by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Wed Apr 16th, 2008 at 08:24:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obsessive foodies ;-) (none / 1)

sorry one too many zeros - 75 centimetres

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Thu Apr 17th, 2008 at 04:53:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bove on 4 verites (none / 1)

Finland has a short growing season and with everyone planting at the same time the crops mature at the same time meaning you'd have to buy your entire years supply of whatever all at once, and store them, or the farmers have to store the produce and dribble them out over the year. My guess is most people don't have the space to stock a couple of tons of veggies and the farmers cannot afford to purchase the storage equipment and absorb the costs of running 'em.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Wed Apr 16th, 2008 at 11:16:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bove on 4 verites (none / 1)

Canning, man, canning.

Like our grandparents...

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Thu Apr 17th, 2008 at 12:26:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bove on 4 verites (none / 1)

Freezing is the better, cheaper, and more versatile technology for unprocessed food preservation.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Thu Apr 17th, 2008 at 10:03:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bove on 4 verites (none / 1)

Yet another achievement of the mighty Welsh Imperium

It was the Welsh (Not very far from InWales place) who worked out how to can Beer.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Thu Apr 17th, 2008 at 10:57:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bove on 4 verites (none / 0)

And beer always tastes colder out of a can.

I never did understand the bottle thing...

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Thu Apr 17th, 2008 at 12:43:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bove on 4 verites (none / 1)

Do Finnish farmers have the right to sell their produce directly? French farmers can sell their stuff on the farm, at roadside stands, or on public markets.

Hence a "farmers' market" doesn't really apply as a term here. Farmers can have market stalls in with the retailers.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Apr 17th, 2008 at 04:45:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bove on 4 verites (none / 1)

Food regulations are quite strict in Finland, though I don't know how this might affect farmer's markets. But one of our local supermarkets is now offering local produce.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Thu Apr 17th, 2008 at 04:59:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bove on 4 verites (none / 1)

I forgot to add that during the summer you can buy berries, veg. mushrooms, flowers etc roadside at farm entrances.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Thu Apr 17th, 2008 at 05:02:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bove on 4 verites (none / 0)

That is a very very fair point, and ultimately, it comes down to footprint.

There are many ways to cut the pear in two.

Perhaps, the best way is to work towards making the choices you and I are able to make more available to those who are not necessarily so able?

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Wed Apr 16th, 2008 at 06:37:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bove on 4 verites (none / 1)

You can make a bicycle out of bamboo.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Apr 16th, 2008 at 06:30:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bove on 4 verites (none / 1)

Very very cool.

I guaranteed I'd break it though. I break the composite ones, roughly one a year.

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Wed Apr 16th, 2008 at 06:40:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bove on 4 verites (none / 0)

good quality steel frame is the way to go - durable, comfortable and the price/quality ratio is great.

by MarekNYC on Wed Apr 16th, 2008 at 06:49:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bove on 4 verites (none / 1)

ABS - Bamboo Bicycle

But Flavio makes me see things differently: Bamboo is a resource of immense potential. And it is strong too. What makes it possible to build bicycles from it is that it is stronger than steel when strained in the longitudinal direction, 17% to be exact.

So steel joints and bamboo shafts?

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Apr 16th, 2008 at 06:52:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bove on 4 verites (none / 0)

i hear you, but i actually broke one of those a few years back that i was spring training on. a bianchi, so not crap. always break them on the seat tube right above the bottom bracket.

prefer aluminum though. twitchier, more responsive, crisper cornering, feel the road better, and also these days cheaper than, or at least comparable to, a good steel frame. plus, recyclable. I just recycled one a month ago.

steel is a good ride too, softer, more forgiving on the back (fortunately mine's good anyhow) but it's usually too heavy to race on.

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Wed Apr 16th, 2008 at 06:56:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bove on 4 verites (none / 0)

Sounds like you're much more serious a rider than me. I never race, and typically peak at anywhere from 60-100 miles of a lazy casual ride in a given season. So the softness is a plus, while the other stuff mostly not that important or even negative e.g. twitchiness (skis on the other hand I want as responsive as possible - the reason why better skis are much worse for beginners - always fun to see the ones with too much money and too little sense) Plus I've never broken a bike - been riding the same one since before college and it still serves me well, though maintenance and upgrades have cost quite a bit more over the years than a new bike.

by MarekNYC on Wed Apr 16th, 2008 at 07:19:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bove on 4 verites (none / 0)

I like my Surly steel frame bike - rides true and like a tank in San Francisco traffic.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Thu Apr 17th, 2008 at 12:02:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bove on 4 verites (4.00 / 2)

by Sassafras on Wed Apr 16th, 2008 at 06:38:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bove on 4 verites (none / 1)

That's just creepy and cool at the same time. I'm sure Tim Burton owns one.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Apr 16th, 2008 at 06:41:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

LQD: Monbiot: Meat a worse crime than biofuels. | 102 comments (102 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

Top Diaries

2024 end of year review and the prospects for 2025

More Status Quo please - for now

Bethlehem Lies In Palestine

Full Circle from Baghdad to Damascus

The Really Hard Work Starts Now

Energy (and Other) Events Monthly - 2024

The Irish general election draws near

Recent Diaries

M.A.D. -- Seconds Before Midnight

Leader of War Terrorists

Assembly: ICC The Hague Under Duress

2024 end of year review and the prospects for 2025

Ukrainian and Al Qaeda Terror Joined in Syria

Bethlehem Lies In Palestine

Full Circle from Baghdad to Damascus

Turks and Sauds to Install Sunni Terror in Damascus, Syria -...

More Back-Stabbing in the New Middle East

#WeAreNATO v Rest of the World

The Really Hard Work Starts Now

US Syrian Quagmire - A Second Life

More Status Quo please - for now

The Arab States Are Faced with Virulent Zionism in Israel

December 2024

Next Step An Integrated, Sovereign Europe

Making the Europe and BreXit Trump Proof ...

Energy (and Other) Events Monthly - 2024

Not A Permanent Ceasefire Lebanon-Israel

Clash of Empires - Crossroads @ Middle East

Occasional Series