Welcome to European Tribune. It's gone a bit quiet around here these days, but it's still going.
Display:
LQD: Monbiot: Meat a worse crime than biofuels. | 102 comments (102 topical, editorial, 0 hidden)
Bove on 4 verites (4.00 / 3)
Bove was on 4 verites y'day talking about this and the food crisis.

He cited a stat that somethng like 30% of the US corn crop was being diverted to biofuels, and also that the majority of south american arable land had been given over to soybean production for raising livestock.

Meat is murder. Well, meat in excess anyway. I don't think one needs more than a serving or two of it a week for good health even if you are an athlete.

But so too is biofuel production.

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Wed Apr 16th, 2008 at 04:11:06 PM EST
Re: Bove on 4 verites (4.00 / 3)
Adding, if y'all think we can get to a point where the market isn't killing the poor in this world, it's necessarily going to take government coercion, some of which will be unpalatable to those of us of more social libertarian bent.

I understand not liking it. But there it is.

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Wed Apr 16th, 2008 at 04:12:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Bove on 4 verites (4.00 / 4)
redstar:
I don't think one needs more than a serving or two of it a week for good health

I believe you do not need meat at all to stay healthy and is often even tastier. Balanced vegetarian food provides everything the body needs. Though I have no problem with people eating meat once or twice a week. That would already be a improvement  healthwise for most people. Most people today eat more meat and proteins than the body can metabolise and discharge - thus in my opinion the reason for many chronic health problems.

by Fran on Wed Apr 16th, 2008 at 04:18:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Bove on 4 verites (4.00 / 4)
Ooops, I should have read it once more before hitting the post button.

Fran:

I believe you do not need meat at all to stay healthy and is often even tastier. Balanced vegetarian food provides everything the body needs.

Should read: I believe you do not need meat at all to stay healthy. Balanced vegetarian food provides everything the body needs and is often even tastier.

by Fran on Wed Apr 16th, 2008 at 04:25:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Bove on 4 verites (4.00 / 2)
half true - tastier is a matter of taste.
by MarekNYC on Wed Apr 16th, 2008 at 04:30:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Bove on 4 verites (4.00 / 4)
I myself havent eaten meat in near enough 20 years, and know quite a few people whos meat consumption is 40 years back. We're all healthy, and happy.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Wed Apr 16th, 2008 at 04:31:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Bove on 4 verites (4.00 / 2)
sort of like celibacy - works for some people, but not quite everyone.
by MarekNYC on Wed Apr 16th, 2008 at 04:36:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Bove on 4 verites (4.00 / 2)
And is considered to confer holiness by some practitioners.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Apr 16th, 2008 at 04:38:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Bove on 4 verites (4.00 / 3)
well I'm not on the holiness side, I'm just of the opinion that the chemicals they put into cows are far more likely to effect me than the chemicals they put into carrots.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Wed Apr 16th, 2008 at 05:19:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Bove on 4 verites (none / 1)
I don't know about that. Some of the chemicals they put in carrots are pretty scary. I try to avoid too much chemical laden meat anyhow: small amounts of organic or thereabouts rather than the glow-in-the-dark stuff.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Apr 16th, 2008 at 05:22:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Bove on 4 verites (none / 1)
Fortunately this is nearby.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Wed Apr 16th, 2008 at 05:35:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Bove on 4 verites (4.00 / 2)
And for the rest of us there's this.

Actually, I'm sure if I put some effort into it I could find a bunch of local markets to go to on weekends for produce...

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Apr 16th, 2008 at 06:38:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Bove on 4 verites (4.00 / 2)
I'm not sure you're right.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Apr 17th, 2008 at 08:34:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Bove on 4 verites (none / 1)
I'm not sure I'm right either, but it does rather throw a spoke in the wheels of people who argue that it's dubious morality that leads people to vegetarianism.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Thu Apr 17th, 2008 at 11:00:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Bove on 4 verites (4.00 / 2)
LOL!
by Fran on Wed Apr 16th, 2008 at 04:38:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Bove on 4 verites (4.00 / 2)
For me its now almost 25 years since I eaten meat and I never regreted it. If I look at my friend, those of my friends who are vegetarians seem to be healthier and more energetic than my friends that eat meat.
by Fran on Wed Apr 16th, 2008 at 04:37:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Bove on 4 verites (none / 1)
Bicycles are murder.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Apr 16th, 2008 at 04:23:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Bove on 4 verites (none / 1)
???
by Fran on Wed Apr 16th, 2008 at 04:26:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Bove on 4 verites (none / 1)
Makes as much sense as "meat is murder".
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Apr 16th, 2008 at 04:29:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Bove on 4 verites (none / 1)
will do when they make bycicles in abatoirs.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Wed Apr 16th, 2008 at 04:32:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Bove on 4 verites (none / 1)
I just know there's a bike made of bones somewhere.

But you could have used the resources to make the bike to do something useful for someone starving in some part of the world. QED.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Apr 16th, 2008 at 04:37:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Bove on 4 verites (none / 1)
Perhaps you have statistics on the amount of resources it takes to build a bicyle, and can compare that to the resource savings produced by using a bicycle rather than motorized transit powered by fossil fuels?

Otherwise, I utterly fail to see your point.

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Wed Apr 16th, 2008 at 04:41:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Bove on 4 verites (none / 0)
If you're powering a bycicle with a meat based diet, I wonder how environmentally friendly bycicles actually are?

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Wed Apr 16th, 2008 at 05:39:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Bove on 4 verites (4.00 / 4)
That I am not, and honestly I don't know any who compete who actually do.

It's not a healthy diet, really, especially the nasty cholesterol-laden protein you get from industrial-raised livestock, research on which is in nascent stages.

Linda McCartney's race team was quite competitive on an all vegetarian diet, the jury's out on what sorts of proteins are the best; but either way, the average man in western europe certainly doesn't need more than 200 grams of protein or so per day taking as average a 180cm man at 75kg as roughly average. Add to this a supplement for recovery in the case of athletes (which most people I know, including me, take in combination with a complex carb base mixed with whey solids, so not exactly meat) and you are about right for diet needs.

And not all of that protein need come from meat sources.

I'm not saying being a vegetarian makes you a saint, and for the record i'm not a vegetarian. But McBouffe is not only bad for you, it is unsustainable.

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Wed Apr 16th, 2008 at 06:04:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Bove on 4 verites (4.00 / 6)
There seems to be a confusion between four different issues here: environment, sustainability, health, and taste.

The last is just that - for those of us who love the taste of meat and dairy it's a pointless exercize.

Health - not really my main concern, and just like you can put together a veggie diet that is healthy, you can do the same for a non-veggie one.  

environment - like so much else, both animal and non-animal products can be produced in a more or less environmentally friendly way.

sustainability - that's the big one. But no, I don't feel particularly guilty.

My philosophy is to make those sustainability/environmental choices which are cause less inconvenience to me or, ideally, which I actually prefer, rather than make huge sacrifices (in the subjective sense). So I have no car, I live in a densely packed city, relying on walking and mass transit exclusively, and I tend to eat local organic stuff to the extent I can afford to. And I suspect that's what most of us do.

by MarekNYC on Wed Apr 16th, 2008 at 06:20:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Bove on 4 verites (4.00 / 4)
We are agitating for local farmer's markets in our town. We are surrounded by farms, but nobody carries local produce except on special fair days about 4 times a year. This is where you buy the garlic jam and marinade mushrooms that'll get you through the winter.

I don't quite understand the economics. Why don't we see a full range of produce? Supply and demand, I guess.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Wed Apr 16th, 2008 at 06:29:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Bove on 4 verites (4.00 / 2)
The core consumers are the environmental types, the health nuts, and the obsessive foodies like me. New York's got plenty of all, often combined. I've got two local greenmarkets (i.e. within easy walking distance) and then there's the main one at Union Square in Manhattan - that I visit in its Saturday incarnation when I feel like a trip to foodie heaven. One nice thing is that they don't just supply produce - meat, fish, dairy - all there. On the down side the produce selection is rather limited from late fall through mid spring and none of this stuff is cheap.
by MarekNYC on Wed Apr 16th, 2008 at 06:36:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Obsessive foodies ;-) (4.00 / 2)
In some ways I become a different person when shopping for food. Price goes out the window, and I am happy to chat inanely with vendors about arcane food matters. Food shopping is the only shopping I enjoy. Everything else is just logiistics.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Wed Apr 16th, 2008 at 06:44:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Obsessive foodies ;-) (4.00 / 2)
For me it's food, cooking equipment, and books. Clothes and shoes - yuck, get twitchy just thinking about it - probably why I tend to put it off until they've literally fallen to pieces.
by MarekNYC on Wed Apr 16th, 2008 at 07:00:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Obsessive foodies ;-) (none / 1)
This I can dig. I designed my kitchen like a sushi bar so guests have to sit and talk to me rather than going off into another room and laughing about things I can't follow.

Right behind the counter is Lundia shelving which holds all the things I need when I am cooking (hardware/software) - within arm's reach. Between the counter and the back shelves is quite narrow - maybe 7500 mm. That is where I hold court, and to where only my closest friends dare to invade ;-) (although bartenders seem to instinctively gravitate there - one told me that he feels safer behind the counter)


You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Wed Apr 16th, 2008 at 07:19:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Obsessive foodies ;-) (none / 1)
7500mm, narrow ?!? (says the Paris 35 square meters appartment inhabitant)

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Wed Apr 16th, 2008 at 08:24:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Obsessive foodies ;-) (none / 1)
sorry one too many zeros - 75 centimetres

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Thu Apr 17th, 2008 at 04:53:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Bove on 4 verites (none / 1)
Finland has a short growing season and with everyone planting at the same time the crops mature at the same time meaning you'd have to buy your entire years supply of whatever all at once, and store them, or the farmers have to store the produce and dribble them out over the year.  My guess is most people don't have the space to stock a couple of tons of veggies and the farmers cannot afford to purchase the storage equipment and absorb the costs of running 'em.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre
by ATinNM on Wed Apr 16th, 2008 at 11:16:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Bove on 4 verites (none / 1)
Canning, man, canning.

Like our grandparents...

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Thu Apr 17th, 2008 at 12:26:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Bove on 4 verites (none / 1)
Freezing is the better, cheaper, and more versatile technology for unprocessed food preservation.  

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre
by ATinNM on Thu Apr 17th, 2008 at 10:03:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Bove on 4 verites (none / 1)
Yet another achievement of the mighty Welsh Imperium

It was the Welsh (Not very far from InWales place) who worked out how to can Beer.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Thu Apr 17th, 2008 at 10:57:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Bove on 4 verites (none / 0)
And beer always tastes colder out of a can.

I never did understand the bottle thing...

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Thu Apr 17th, 2008 at 12:43:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Bove on 4 verites (none / 1)
Do Finnish farmers have the right to sell their produce directly? French farmers can sell their stuff on the farm, at roadside stands, or on public markets.

Hence a "farmers' market" doesn't really apply as a term here. Farmers can have market stalls in with the retailers.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Apr 17th, 2008 at 04:45:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Bove on 4 verites (none / 1)
Food regulations are quite strict in Finland, though I don't know how this might affect farmer's markets. But one of our local supermarkets is now offering local produce.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Thu Apr 17th, 2008 at 04:59:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Bove on 4 verites (none / 1)
I forgot to add that during the summer you can buy berries, veg. mushrooms, flowers etc roadside at farm entrances.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Thu Apr 17th, 2008 at 05:02:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Bove on 4 verites (none / 0)
That is a very very fair point, and ultimately, it comes down to footprint.

There are many ways to cut the pear in two.

Perhaps, the best way is to work towards making the choices you and I are able to make more available to those who are not necessarily so able?

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Wed Apr 16th, 2008 at 06:37:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Bove on 4 verites (none / 1)
You can make a bicycle out of bamboo.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Apr 16th, 2008 at 06:30:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Bove on 4 verites (none / 1)
Very very cool.

I guaranteed I'd break it though. I break the composite ones, roughly one a year.

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Wed Apr 16th, 2008 at 06:40:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Bove on 4 verites (none / 0)
good quality steel frame is the way to go - durable, comfortable and the price/quality ratio is great.
by MarekNYC on Wed Apr 16th, 2008 at 06:49:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Bove on 4 verites (none / 1)
ABS - Bamboo Bicycle
But Flavio makes me see things differently: Bamboo is a resource of immense potential. And it is strong too. What makes it possible to build bicycles from it is that it is stronger than steel when strained in the longitudinal direction, 17% to be exact.
So steel joints and bamboo shafts?

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Apr 16th, 2008 at 06:52:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Bove on 4 verites (none / 0)
i hear you, but i actually broke one of those a few years back that i was spring training on. a bianchi, so not crap. always break them on the seat tube right above the bottom bracket.

prefer aluminum though. twitchier, more responsive, crisper cornering, feel the road better, and also these days cheaper than, or at least comparable to, a good steel frame. plus, recyclable. I just recycled one a month ago.

steel is a good ride too, softer, more forgiving on the back (fortunately mine's good anyhow) but it's usually too heavy to race on.

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Wed Apr 16th, 2008 at 06:56:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Bove on 4 verites (none / 0)
Sounds like you're much more serious a rider than me.   I never race, and typically peak at anywhere from 60-100 miles of a lazy casual ride in a given season. So the softness is a plus, while the other stuff mostly not that important or even negative e.g. twitchiness (skis on the other hand I want as responsive as possible - the reason why better skis are much worse for beginners - always fun to see the ones with too much money and too little sense) Plus I've never broken a bike - been riding the same one since before college and it still serves me well, though maintenance and upgrades have cost quite a bit more over the years than a new bike.
by MarekNYC on Wed Apr 16th, 2008 at 07:19:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Bove on 4 verites (none / 0)
I like my Surly steel frame bike - rides true and like a tank in San Francisco traffic.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Thu Apr 17th, 2008 at 12:02:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Bove on 4 verites (4.00 / 2)
by Sassafras on Wed Apr 16th, 2008 at 06:38:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Bove on 4 verites (none / 1)
That's just creepy and cool at the same time. I'm sure Tim Burton owns one.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Apr 16th, 2008 at 06:41:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Bove on 4 verites (4.00 / 3)
If it takes more arable land to produce beef than it does to produce the same amount of calories of rice, beans, wheat or sorghum, and people who are dependent upon the latter for sustenance are starving because food prices are rising due to beef production for the tastes of rich nations, then meat is murder.

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill
by r------ on Wed Apr 16th, 2008 at 04:38:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Bove on 4 verites (none / 1)
Clothes are murder. Could have grown food instead.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Apr 16th, 2008 at 04:41:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Bove on 4 verites (none / 0)
Is there a point to this, Colman?

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill
by r------ on Wed Apr 16th, 2008 at 04:41:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Bove on 4 verites (none / 1)
Nah, just throwing pointless hyperbole around the place. I thought that was what we were doing?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Apr 16th, 2008 at 04:45:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Bove on 4 verites (4.00 / 2)
And here I though you were just trolling.

Looked more like it, anyway.

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Wed Apr 16th, 2008 at 04:46:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Bove on 4 verites (none / 0)
The Arrogant Worms: Carrot juice is murder


I must add, in fairness, that they're the same people who sing I am cow.


You're clearly a dangerous pinko commie pragmatist.

by Vagulus on Wed Apr 16th, 2008 at 08:25:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

LQD: Monbiot: Meat a worse crime than biofuels. | 102 comments (102 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)
Display:

Top Diaries

Ireland 13 South Africa 8

by Frank Schnittger - Sep 24
1 comment

UNGA: West Censors the South and East

by Oui - Sep 19
16 comments

EU VDL State of the Union -- Managing Decay

by Oui - Sep 13
29 comments

Rugby World Cup 2023 Week 1 review

by Frank Schnittger - Sep 11
5 comments

Reactionary Visions and eNtiTiES

by Cat - Sep 13
9 comments

Sovereignty 2040

by Frank Schnittger - Sep 2
2 comments

Energy (and Other) Events Monthly - September 2023

by gmoke - Aug 30
2 comments

Recent Diaries

Ireland 13 South Africa 8

by Frank Schnittger - Sep 24
1 comment

UNGA: West Censors the South and East

by Oui - Sep 19
16 comments

A Tale by Benjamin Franklin

by gmoke - Sep 17
3 comments

Fail in Democracy Return to Authoritarianism

by Oui - Sep 15
3 comments

Yemen From Ceasefire to Peace Talks?

by Oui - Sep 15

Huge Cost Proxy War of Choice

by Oui - Sep 14
11 comments

EU VDL State of the Union -- Managing Decay

by Oui - Sep 13
29 comments

Reactionary Visions and eNtiTiES

by Cat - Sep 13
9 comments

Top Military War Planning Under Joe Biden - Ukraine

by Oui - Sep 12
3 comments

Rugby World Cup 2023 Week 1 review

by Frank Schnittger - Sep 11
5 comments

Joe's Fuck the EU -- Showdown

by Oui - Sep 9
29 comments

Modi G20 One Earth, One Family, One Future

by Oui - Sep 7
13 comments

Conflict In Syria's Deir Ezzor Province

by Oui - Sep 6
1 comment

Sovereignty 2040

by Frank Schnittger - Sep 2
2 comments

Some September Food/Ag Events

by gmoke - Sep 2

September 2023

by Oui - Sep 1
159 comments

The Leading International Pariah State

by Oui - Aug 31
5 comments

Energy (and Other) Events Monthly - September 2023

by gmoke - Aug 30
2 comments

BREAKING: The Free State of Gabon

by Oui - Aug 30
4 comments

Ukraine Halting China's BRI Project to EU

by Oui - Aug 30
10 comments

More Diaries...

Occasional Series