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  1. In my view, and from personal experience, the problem of the common language used in ET (English) is "in writing diaries complex": it is not in reading, or writing comments.

  2. A system of automatic translation does not exist -as far as I know: they are investigating on improving what already exists, but the level achieved is still unsatisfactory for a routine use on a large scale.

  3. If we diversify ET in several languages, in my opinion, this has the following problems:
           a) If we are to maintain a unity of ET, we must include all the different elements on the same page. And this, from experience, I know that is impractical (See: A Multi-Lingual Experiment About Language, by Augustinatalie, in ET, or http://okonkanuto.blogspot.com).

           b) If we divide ET in several sub-websites, according languages, users will see page written in their own language and, at best, a user will look at some other site in a language he considers easy.

I think that the language of the site must be English. At least, ET will readers. And this site will be a unit. If processed materials are made, they must be written in English and revised so they have a good level of expression -or written, for its importance, in the native language of the author and translated into English by a capable person.

Many people, like me, we are able to read several languages, but we have trouble writing and speaking, because we learned languages as tools for our studies and to obtain specialized information, but we do not have enough expressive fluidity.

I, as linguist and philologist, I think I can say: if a community does not possess a single common language, the different languages will divide the community in respective sub-communities. The problem of language is a matter of utmost importance. Let us be careful.

"Correspondents" in each country in Europe -and even in non-European countries- may have. And the material from them must be common set of ET as unitary website.

I think that the language problem is not what we have to resolve first.

(I will continue.)

by PerCLupi on Tue May 13th, 2008 at 05:14:51 AM EST
I think an international auto-blog would be a very interesting side-project. It would certainly be a useful and noteworthy thing, even with some manual tweaking of output. The idea is inherently powerful, even if the the implementation would probably be less so.

But in the short term we'll get more mileage from localising ET for non-English use, perhaps with a simple link to a 'translate this page' feature on something like Babelfish. It would be a simple and quick mash-up which would do the job almost as well as a three year research project would.

I wouldn't see developing new language community spin-offs as a bad thing, as long as there was some cross fertilisation between them.

If ET became multilingual overnight, we'd soon be swamped by content. We might be better off having roving front pagers who can cross-post specific topics.

Possibly the easiest way to implement this would be to run everything on a single server in a single database, with language tags for user filtering, and either individual cross-post tags for specific language crossovers, and a global show-all tag for ultra-special posts that would interest everyone.

With a bit of code you could possibly persuade the mash-up to show the translations automatically, with an option to have volunteer translators who can spend 15-20 minutes beating a machine translation into something that makes local sense.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue May 13th, 2008 at 05:47:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think my reply to PerClupi - just below, and written at the same time as yours, says more or less the same thing.  Even if this project is not 100% successful first time around - it is an effort which should be made, and an effort the EU should support.  In fact its a hugely ambitious effort, and even a few stepa in the direction of supporting cross linguistic dialogue and blogging would be a hugely powerful tool towards supporting the creation of an EU Demos or active citizenry.

"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Tue May 13th, 2008 at 05:58:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, my comment to PerClupi is along the same line. (see below)

"Dieu se rit des hommes qui se plaignent des conséquences alors qu'ils en chérissent les causes" Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet
by Melanchthon on Tue May 13th, 2008 at 06:05:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
...Although I also think the idea needs to fit into a bigger picture. Otherwise it will become a technical project for the sake of it, rather than something that's really going to have a social impact.

My take on it would be to keep it as simple as possible - multiple sites, a single server, a single database, simple auto translation, some manual tagging and editing.

I don't think a fully automated site is possible for now, and we shouldn't promise that to anyone.

Functionally I think the different language versions should be independent with some cross-posting. The plan wouldn't be to have all of the content duplicated across all the sites.

Position papers can probably stay in English, although French and German would be useful.

If you tag the auto-translation with a Beta label, no one will expect great things of it, which would help to minimise disappointment.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue May 13th, 2008 at 06:18:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think my reply to PerClupi - just below, and written at the same time as yours, says more or less the same thing.  Even if this project is not 100% successful first time around - it is an effort which should be made, and an effort the EU should support.  In fact its a hugely ambitious effort, and even a few stepa in the direction of supporting cross linguistic dialogue and blogging would be a hugely powerful tool towards supporting the creation of an EU Demos or active citizenry.

Melanchthon may be able to advise on the level of detail that would be required for a grant application.  Often they don't require a fully researched solution, only a statement of what the project objectives are, how we propose to address them, and what our capabilities/experience of delivering such projects/services are.  

The EU ill not expect a fully fledged solution for the amount of money we are talking about - say 150k. - with 90k provided by EU.  I will make some inquiries about finding an Irish public source/sponsor to make a contribution towards the remaining 60K - I think this is where the timescale will probably prove impossible, although the same project proposal used to apply for EU funding could also be used to apply for national/local funds, and presumably it will not be necessary to have the 60K in place to apply for the 90K.

"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Tue May 13th, 2008 at 06:44:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
PerCLupi:
I think that the language problem is not what we have to resolve first.

However it is the problem which might best attract EU funding.  I don't see a problem with different sub communities being created who converse primarily in their mother tongues provided there are at least 90% accurate translation engines around to make those conversations at least partly accessible to others, and particularly to people who have some, but not sufficient capability in a particular language without some translation support.

This will help create more dialogue between otherwise diverse linguistic sub-groups who at the moment have no means of interacting meaningfully on-line.   Just becuase we don't have a 100% solution doesn't mean that an 80-90% solution shouldn't be attempted, particularly if bridging the remaining 10% communication gap requires human effort and creates better linguisitic skills, social interaction, and sense of shared effort.

What we are proposing is to create an infrastructure capable of supporting enhanced dialogue between peopl with different primary languages.  The infrastructure itself will never be a substitute for people making the mutual effort to understand each other better.

"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Tue May 13th, 2008 at 05:53:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Currently, and for the foreseeable future, there are no usable automatic translation systems that would even reach 80% understandability. You're going to get 80% of the words correctly translated, word for word - that's not enough to get basic understandability. And even building such a system is an extremely hard task.

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Tue May 13th, 2008 at 06:08:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
However it is the problem which might best attract EU funding.

I am not quite sure of that. We could provide the possibility of using existing translation and analyse the impact this has had on increasing visitors and their provenance, after a while.

For example: Do we know how many non-English speaking people have signed Stop Blair in English and how many have chosen the site in their own language?

by PerCLupi on Tue May 13th, 2008 at 06:52:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I agree with you: the main goal should be to maintain and develop ET as the community and "thinking network" it is. However, we could, in parallel with ET and without modifying ET, launch an experiment about a real-time multi-lingual forum in which the ET users could participate.

"Dieu se rit des hommes qui se plaignent des conséquences alors qu'ils en chérissent les causes" Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet
by Melanchthon on Tue May 13th, 2008 at 06:01:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, I agree. I'm wary of splitting the community if we have several language sites. I'd be keener on having a way to translate more stuff, post more bilingual columns, and have  non-English diaries in the main site.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Tue May 13th, 2008 at 06:30:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'd think a way to see diaries in the languages the user chooses, and an emphasis on translating the better diaries - with volunteers able to translate diaries  of their choosing - into other languages, as a way to keep the language communities interacting...

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Tue May 13th, 2008 at 06:55:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This is ET 3.0 if you'd ask me...

  1. Is it doable at all and at what costs are we looking at?
  2. Is it doable in SCOOP or does it need to be build from an entire new platform whilst able to keep the threading?

Don't get me wrong, I think such language pollination model has the best chance to retain some of the ET spirit while opening it up to other countries. I've previously pointed to an European equivalent when this came up: CafeBabel from which I'd say ET can learn bits and pieces.
by Nomad (Bjinse) on Tue May 13th, 2008 at 08:12:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Not doable in Scoop. At all.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue May 13th, 2008 at 08:16:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
According to Migeru, Scoop code is a bit too ugly to modify and make it cross language. Doing it at all needs not be very hard ; the coding itself is possibly a few man-months, which can be partly volunteer, at least. The advantages of starting from scratch, or from switching to another content management base, would be that it'd be easier to customise ET.

If we do ET 2.0 Deluxe, adding language support in it wouldn't be too hard, anyway. Language support in itself isn't hard to add on a custom codebase ; the problem, obviously, is having a clean enough codebase that it'd be easy to do.

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères

by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Tue May 13th, 2008 at 08:18:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This would be my preference as well.  One infrastructure and community, multiple content types.  The tagging functionality will in any case be required if the volume of content (in any language) increases significantly and allow users to find/focus on their primary interests.

"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Tue May 13th, 2008 at 07:02:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The tags do need to be unified across languages : L'anglo maladie and the Anglo Disease need to lead to the same diaries in both languages.

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Tue May 13th, 2008 at 07:43:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
<gibber>
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue May 13th, 2008 at 07:53:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I was thinking of tagging for language only, not tagging for content.

Otherwise you have to create a multilingual tag database, which would be mad.

I'm not sure how useful content tagging is anyway. If you can search for keywords directly from a Google search, and there's a Wiki and/or a best-of articles list, what would content tagging add?

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue May 13th, 2008 at 05:51:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Tags are much, much more useful than google search, and much easier to maintain than a wiki.

Plus, tagging would allow those that are interested in a narrower range of subjects, especially if ET gets bigger, to quickly access what interests them.

My idea about tagging is having only a few dozens of them, and adding them when the needs arise. i.e. adding new tags would be an editorial  job. Multiligualising that wouldn't be hard, really.

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères

by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Tue May 13th, 2008 at 06:45:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
linca: Tags are much, much more useful than google search, and much easier to maintain than a wiki.

Tags, if managed well (e.g. making it an editorial job, as you propose) and applied well, are extremely helpful.

But they will not replace Google searching, and new technologies (such as Powerset) will continue to come out to improve fast and smart querying.

Tags' and wikis' main value add's are in quite different areas: tags are for organizing and locating information, wikis are for collaborative content generation.

A language is a dialect with an army and navy.

by marco on Tue May 13th, 2008 at 09:17:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Clarification:

I have raised just one point as a problem and to harness energies in the process of improving. I have not rejected the possibility of using an existing mechanism that can facilitate that non-English-speaking Europeans consider that it is easier to enter ET.

My view was that an interesting ET attract more visitors than a multilingual ET.

If possible facilitate muntilingual
understanding, very well.

by PerCLupi on Tue May 13th, 2008 at 06:41:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
PerClupi, I agree.  Even the small quadriligual exercise I started took much longer than I wanted to spend on it and a full article done in this way would be ridiculously energy-wasting. There might be some way to make it work better but it would take a lot of thought and collaborative time. The original English content to be translated wpuld need to be pared down as much as possible, more drastically than one would normally do for the sake of clear writing. A one-page multilingual translation would need to flow easily from one language to the next, perhaps in the same paragraph rather than distinctly separated.

The instant-translation services I've seen, eg Babelfish and Google, are hilariously bad. Content on my own website was put through one of those word-grinders in Spanish and came out in a tongue no one on this planet would understand.

Blaugustine

by Augustinatalie (endapressNOTblueyonderNOTcoNOTuk) on Wed May 14th, 2008 at 01:22:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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