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Uhm, is there some boycott I'm not aware of?

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.
by poemless on Fri May 16th, 2008 at 04:06:09 PM EST
I don't know enough about Russia, Putin, or the current generation of Russian Armored Fighting Vehicles to comment.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre
by ATinNM on Fri May 16th, 2008 at 04:52:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Neither do I.  Weirdly, doesn't stop me from writing diaries about those things...

Actually, anyone who has been reading this series knows much much more about Russia than most of the  population, I bet.

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.

by poemless on Fri May 16th, 2008 at 04:58:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
(kee-rash  another Idol falls from the plinth of my life.)

At least you can fake it, more than I can do.


She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Fri May 16th, 2008 at 05:34:39 PM EST
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I think you've missed my point.  I have never pretended to know what I am talking about.  But a monkey can read the paper and figure out when things don't add up.

There isn't anything in this dairy that requires outside knowledge of events to understand.  Or is there?  Maybe I can't tell anymore.

I suspect it has nothing to do with specified knowledge and everything to do with specified interest.

In fact, the whole point of writing diaries is to inform people or start a discussion, not to exclude people unfamiliar with a topic.  IMHO.  It's precisely by reading people's diaries that I learn about subjects I have no background in.  And I've never been aware of anyone needing credentials to make comments or ask questions (or write diaries, frankly.)  

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.

by poemless on Fri May 16th, 2008 at 05:42:40 PM EST
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And I've never been aware of anyone needing credentials to make comments or ask questions (or write diaries, frankly.)

Luckily for me.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri May 16th, 2008 at 05:43:49 PM EST
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Whateveh.  You're like the pretty girl who goes around mewing about being ugly.  Trolling for compliments, that's what you're up to!

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.
by poemless on Fri May 16th, 2008 at 05:47:58 PM EST
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In fact, the whole point of writing diaries is to inform people or start a discussion, not to exclude people unfamiliar with a topic.  IMHO.  It's precisely by reading people's diaries that I learn about subjects I have no background in.  And I've never been aware of anyone needing credentials to make comments or ask questions (or write diaries, frankly.)

A discussion? Then I'll comment on the article by Stephen F. Cohen. I agree completely. After the Cold War, some idealists saw signs Washington and Moscow together would forge a mighty alliance for world peace. That, however, is not the way US superpower mentality works. Kremlin watchers soon realized US leaders were playing with fire as the Americans started letting their post-USSR relations with Russia sour by sending signals in the form of a number of policy decisions that the Russian leadership could not help but interpret as aimed against Russia.

Russians' relations, for example, with their Slavic cousins in Poland have been troubled for centuries, and for Washington to appear to be taking Warsaw's side by building missile installations in Poland, at Russia's western border, was the epitome of incompetence. Then large quantities of oil were poured on the fire by imprudent Polish nationalist leaders, itching to land digs against Russia, who stated that now Russia would think twice before ever attacking Poland where US armed forces would also be stationed.

As if Poland weren't enough, the US government courted the president of Estonia, who immigrated with his Estonian parents to the US as a small child and grew up there among Estonian extremists for whom having to breathe the same air as Russians was an imposition. The US actions occurred against the background of a highly emotional issue for Russians, namely the Second World War, and the monument to dead Soviet soldiers that the Estonian authorities moved out of Tallinn because they said it was a monument to Soviet domination of Estonia. Despite years of training "Sovietologists" during the Cold War, the US elite appear not to have the slightest idea about how Russians tick. If they did, their political course would have reflected their expertise.

The list of US mistakes goes on and on. European leaders, who are said to have some experience in diplomacy, should all along have been making every effort to calm the waters in Eastern Europe, but they too have proved largely incapable, with little influence to help settle disputes between the various countries by peaceable means. Admittedly, the German chancellor did recently convince NATO not to start the admission procedure for Ukraine and Georgia, which would have strained relations with Russia. It's just a matter of time, however, before those countries on Russia's borders join the alliance.

Observers should not be surprised when American incompetence one day blows up in our faces.

by Anthony Williamson on Sat May 17th, 2008 at 11:22:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
about Poland, which is how that country used the "energy weapon" in the late 90s against Russia, to extract hard cash from it at a time when it was pretty much running out of it, by playing nasty games with the construction of the Yamal-Europe pipeline.

Gazprom was forced to pay in full for the construction of the pipeline (with is notionally 51% owned by Polish interests), among other friendly things.

This is the real reason for NordStream under the Baltic, and it shows that the Germans were not very pleased by these games: both sides knew that they'd be accused of going "Molotov-Ribbentrop" on Poland again by avoiding its territory for a new pipeline, which only goes to show that the alternative would have been worse from their perspective.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sat May 17th, 2008 at 05:34:14 PM EST
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for Washington to appear to be taking Warsaw's side by building missile installations in Poland, at Russia's western border, was the epitome of incompetence.

The pressure is coming from Washington, the Poles are rather reluctant.

Then large quantities of oil were poured on the fire by imprudent Polish nationalist leaders, itching to land digs against Russia, who stated that now Russia would think twice before ever attacking Poland where US armed forces would also be stationed.

Huh? That's a provocation?

Russians' relations, for example, with their Slavic cousins in Poland have been troubled for centuries, and for Washington to appear to be taking Warsaw's side

OK, now I see where you're coming from, but really, as good a poet as he was, don't you think you should be basing your views on something more objective and at least a tad more up to date?

he US actions occurred against the background of a highly emotional issue for Russians, namely the Second World War, and the monument to dead Soviet soldiers that the Estonian authorities moved out of Tallinn because they said it was a monument to Soviet domination of Estonia

And if perhaps the Russians were willing to acknowledge that it is also a monument to the brutal imposition of Soviet rule over Estonia, they might get along a bit better with their neighbours. But what do I know, maybe if the Americans stay in Iraq for another forty years, build large war monuments to their soldiers, and then pull out, folks like you will be cheering on American outrage if the Iraqis proceed to tear it down.

Who needs Atlanticists when the 'pro-Russian'  Westerners seem to be bent on making sure that Russo-Central European relations remain horrible, that those countries look to to Washington, and regard a more independent and consolidated EU as a serious threat to their security.

by MarekNYC on Sat May 17th, 2008 at 08:10:39 PM EST
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Soviet crimes are thoroughly documented and well known to anyone wanting to find out about them, atrocities in the USSR itself, where the Soviets murdered not only Polish officers at Katyn but also their own people, and in annexed territories like Estonia as well as in countries once under Soviet domination like Czechoslovakia and Hungary.

The Second World War, however, sucked in participants of every stripe, including some who were not supportive of their respective government. A major unifying factor of postwar Europe was the sacrifice in human life in every country where the war had raged, including in the European perpetrator itself, Germany, where millions of innocent people were among those who endured incredible suffering.

In the aftermath, two age-old enemies, France and Germany, reached out their hands to each other in reconciliation, which, in my opinion, is one of the miracles of the twentieth century. Now, Poles and Russians are neither French nor German, and there's not going to be any reconciliation there anytime soon because there's an overriding element of hysteria in Russian-Polish relations that's not going to go away. An advisor to the White House could easily give tips to the US government about how to send both Russians and Poles into a hysterical tizzy and clawing at each other's throats in order to keep the Kremlin's attention riveted on Poland.

Miniature Estonia is an issue of no less magnitude. It would have been magnanimous of Estonia to leave the Soviet monument in central Tallinn as a poignant reminder of Estonia's bitter past and as a tribute to men who lost their lives in the war fighting for their homes and their families. Moscow, for its part, should have done everything in its power to diffuse the crisis over removal of the monument and the graves it marked. And the Estonian government should have distanced itself long ago from the former SS-men in Estonia who have proudly marched in recent years in their SS uniforms.

It's going to be a very long time before the advent of European unity poses any kind of a challenge to what the US thinks is best for Europe.

by Anthony Williamson on Sun May 18th, 2008 at 11:23:40 AM EST
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An advisor to the White House could easily give tips to the US government about how to send both Russians and Poles into a hysterical tizzy and clawing at each other's throats in order to keep the Kremlin's attention riveted on Poland.

Not quite as easy as you suggest. The kinds of measures which calm down the Poles tend to be seen by the Russians as a provocation, most notably NATO membership. Washington could try to pressure the Poles to avoid silly provocative symbolic stuff of the sort the Twins like to engage in, however, they have absolutely zero ability to do the same on the Russian side.  Plus it's not always clear if Moscow is able to distinguish between hardline governments and the moderate ones who are interested in better relations.

And while you are correct to say that the knowledge of Soviet atrocities is easily available, it isn't all that well known - e.g. very few Westerners are aware that the Soviet occupation of Eastern Poland was just as brutal as the Nazi occupation was for non-Jews. (Rather ironically, if the folks currently running the show in Moscow had had their way back in the nineties, we'd still be thinking that it was more deadly, but the brief access to NKVD archives showed that to be incorrect)

On the Estonian side, Washington also has the problem that it has zero influence on Moscow. It could try to pressure the Estonians to do things like keep the monument, but that's difficult to accomplish without apologies for both occupations and the atrocities they involved.

In general I'd say that the Russians would be well advised to look at the approach the Poles have taken in their relations with Ukraine. That has involved lots of apologies, long drawn out negotiations over Polish national symbols in Ukraine and how exactly they can be modified in such a way that satisfies Ukrainian sensitivities while keeping them in place, and ignoring things that the Russians would treat as provocations (e.g. the honoring of Ukrainian fascist militias involved in massacring Poles in what is now Western Ukraine). It's a policy that has been followed consistently by not just moderate governments, but also hardline nationalist ones who ignore the screams of outrage that regularly emanate from their own ranks. If a former occupying power wants to have good relations with its ex-victims, that's the way they need to operate.

by MarekNYC on Sun May 18th, 2008 at 12:29:23 PM EST
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In general I'd say that the Russians would be well advised to look at the approach the Poles have taken in their relations with Ukraine. That has involved lots of apologies, long drawn out negotiations over Polish national symbols in Ukraine and how exactly they can be modified in such a way that satisfies Ukrainian sensitivities while keeping them in place, and ignoring things that the Russians would treat as provocations (e.g. the honoring of Ukrainian fascist militias involved in massacring Poles in what is now Western Ukraine.

The normalization of Polish-Ukrainian relations is a praiseworthy undertaking. It's heartwarming to hear that Poles have abandoned old attitudes that led to treating their Ukrainian neighbors as a nation inferior to themselves; no could help but applaud improvement. Moreover, Poland appears to have shown magnanimity in deciding to overlook celebrations in Ukraine to honor Ukrainian collaborators who joined units fighting alongside Nazi forces during the Second World War, committing war crimes, also against Poles.

To my mind, however, Germany has pursued one of the most successful foreign policy courses since the war, towards both its neighbors and other countries, including Russia and Ukraine. The announcement by the German chancellor in office at the time that Germany would not participate in America's invasion of Iraq was a stroke of genius. The chancellor's designation of the American operation as a "military adventure" has proven to be prophetic. It's a shame that Poland and Ukraine sent troops.

Germany has actively supported the democratic and economic development of Ukraine along with its integration in European structures. Germany is Kiev's second most important trading partner after Russia, with over 1,000 German companies operating in Ukraine. Germany has also pursued a policy of reconciliation with Ukraine, stressing responsibility for both the destruction of the country by German forces during the war and the suffering they inflicted on the people, including Ukrainian Jews. Germany pays compensation to former Ukrainian slave laborers, and German officials every year take part in a ceremony at Babi Yar to commemorate the victims of the wartime massacre there.

Germany also maintains excellent relations with Russia, and anytime Germans step in help reconcile nations, in East and West, they can count on my applause.

by Anthony Williamson on Mon May 19th, 2008 at 01:45:06 PM EST
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And I've never been aware of anyone needing credentials to make comments or ask questions (or write diaries, frankly.)

There are several self-styled Russia experts on Daily Kos who would disagree with great barrages of ad hominems.

by rifek on Sat May 17th, 2008 at 11:57:59 PM EST
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</whistles, looks around...>

I'm sure I have no idea what you are talking about.

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.

by poemless on Mon May 19th, 2008 at 10:43:07 AM EST
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