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High oil prices? Tax cars & jet fuel! | 67 comments (67 topical, editorial, 0 hidden)
Re: High oil prices? (none / 1)
Coal power is often critisised, but no consequences are drawn.

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers
by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Thu May 29th, 2008 at 02:13:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: High oil prices? (none / 1)
Really? No consequences? Then I suppose all those windmills dotting the landscape arrived there by the forces of the market, unfettered by any political aims to move the generation of electricity away from coal?

</snark>

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Thu May 29th, 2008 at 03:05:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: High oil prices? (4.00 / 3)
From the German perspective he is right. The last Government decided to fade out nuclear power not coal. And German Environmentalists (and Austrian even more so) are rather focused on nuclear energy.
by generic on Thu May 29th, 2008 at 03:34:59 PM EST
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Re: High oil prices? (4.00 / 4)
BUND für Umwelt und Naturschutz Deutschland: Klima & Energie (Main German environmental NGO; part of Friends of the Earth International)
Mehr als 25 neue Kohlekraftwerke sollen in den nächsten Jahren in Deutschland gebaut werden. Allen voran wollen RWE, Vattenfall, e.on und EnBW wieder in die Technik von gestern investieren. Will Deutschland seine Klimaziele erreichen, darf es keine neuen Kohlekraftwerke geben.

Kampf gegen Kohle (Campaign of the German Green Party)

Kohlekraftwerke sind der Klimakiller Nr. 1. Dennoch planen Vattenfall, RWE & Co. mehr als 30 neue Kohlekraftwerke allein in Deutschland. Gruenes-klima.de informiert und bündelt den bundesweiten Widerstand. Hilf auch Du mit und stoppe die Klimakiller. In der Rubrik "Kampf gegen Kohle" findest du die aktuellsten Informationen zum Widerstand, eine interaktive Online-Karte, alle Ansprechpartner vor Ort und vieles mehr.

Being proper greens, the German greens oppose both nuclear and coal. I have to say that the intensity of the anti-coal sentiment has increased a lot since the end of the red-green government. But even in that government, it was the SPD (especially Clement and the economy ministry) that was on the side of coal, not the greens.
by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Thu May 29th, 2008 at 04:43:24 PM EST
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Re: High oil prices? (4.00 / 2)
And that is just the reason I voiced my loathing of Clement so often on ET.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Thu May 29th, 2008 at 04:46:06 PM EST
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Re: High oil prices? (none / 0)
Let's see how many of the coal plants are really build in the end. I bet any time that not more than 5 of the more than 25 planned plants will be stopped. And then they are runnung for maybe 60 years.
But if there is any left party involved in the next federal gov, then nuclear is dead in Germany.

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers
by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Thu May 29th, 2008 at 05:12:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: High oil prices? (4.00 / 2)
Let's see. I bet just the opposite: for long I thought that these high numbers of 25, 40 coal power plants are wishful thinking on purpose (you push up market value by predicting expansion, and you gather support for the few projects you actually realise). I expect more news like this  and this and this. And the Greens (as opposed to SPD NRW) are active protesting wherever there is a project.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Thu May 29th, 2008 at 06:14:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: High oil prices? (none / 1)
The vast German power market, controlled by mindless politicians is the wet dream of Swedish power executives. Vattenfall would so love to build half a dozen big reactors in southerns Sweden for the sole use of exporting power to Germany.

The viability of nuclear in Germany doesn't rest exclusively in the hands of mindless German politicians, but also in the hands of mindless Swedish politicians. ;)

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid on Fri May 30th, 2008 at 02:07:27 AM EST
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Re: High oil prices? (none / 1)
And German Environmentalists (and Austrian even more so) are rather focused on nuclear energy.

Garzweiler II was a defeat, but it was something, I'd say.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Thu May 29th, 2008 at 04:47:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: High oil prices? (none / 1)
It is a question of proportion. If one compares the cost of a CO2 emission certificate for the industry with the taxes on gas for driving minus a share for street infrastructure, traffic police,... then you still end up with much higher taxation of gas than of coal.

Ok, one could argue that windmill and solar subsidies are 'anti-coal', but I think that big industrial power consumers still can make a deal with a power companies to get electricity essentially at the price as it comes from a coal fired plant, so I wouldn't directly count wind as anti-coal. And nuclear... There were really enough (good) discussions about nuclear in this forum...

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Thu May 29th, 2008 at 04:07:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: High oil prices? (none / 1)
I agree on one thing: the exemptions to "energy-intensive industries" from the Ökosteuer were a shame; but thank the Genosse der Bosse. This resulted in the nice situation that the German Railways pays the ecology tax for its electricity, while E.ON et al don't pay it for their coal power plants.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Thu May 29th, 2008 at 04:58:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: High oil prices? (none / 1)
That is totally ass-backwards.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 29th, 2008 at 05:22:52 PM EST
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Re: High oil prices? (4.00 / 3)
Actually !x#&@! Clement, then head of Northrhine-Westphalias state, also had his hand in it. (Just found an old article about him threatening to kill the ecology tax in the Bundesrat, the upper house of the federal parliament that consists of representastives of satate governments.)

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Thu May 29th, 2008 at 06:03:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: High oil prices? (4.00 / 2)
One consequence of activism against coal that you may be too young to remember was the spread of smoke filters in Germany. Presently, the top issue is fine particulate matter, which would need more expensive smoke filters (in power plants - open-cast mines are another thing), so the companies continue to resist. I note Greenpeace, much dismissed by our lovely technocrats, did some actions on that front.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Thu May 29th, 2008 at 05:02:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

High oil prices? Tax cars & jet fuel! | 67 comments (67 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)
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