High oil prices? Tax cars & jet fuel! | 67 comments (67 topical, editorial, 0 hidden)

Re: High oil prices? (none / 0)

It's funny how the areas where oil use is actually the most useful and adds the most value and where there is absolutely hardest to find substitutes, cars and chemical factories, are the things which have been the most demonised by the "environmentalists". And of course, nuclear, but that doesn't really matter here.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid on Thu May 29th, 2008 at 12:38:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: High oil prices? (none / 1)

Oil use adds much value to nuclear? It obviously adds value to cars, but the value-added of cars to the economy at a macro level is questionable at current levels. We would be better off with a lower volume of traffic (a big share of car drivers included).

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Thu May 29th, 2008 at 12:53:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: High oil prices? (none / 0)

I explicity said nuclear was not included here. It doesn't have any direct link with oil. I mean that the things that have been demonised are the things where oil is really important, and on top that nuclear has also been demonised, in spite of not having a direct link to oil anymore.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid on Thu May 29th, 2008 at 01:38:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: High oil prices? (none / 0)

OK. Your argument is still odd. Oil might add a lot of value to cars and the chemical industry. But environmentalists can rely on good arguments against the added value of cars to the economy (at the level they are driven in western countries), which I'd guess would be your bottom line.

(I don't know about the case WRT the chemical industry)

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Thu May 29th, 2008 at 01:45:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: High oil prices? (4.00 / 4)

Well, I am not so sure that I agree with you that cars are where burning fossil fuels adds the most value (nor do I agree that they are the most criticised... coal power comes to mind as a likely candidate). I for one can do without a car, but I would not like living through a Danish winter without central heating.

Chemical factories are criticised for other reasons: Mainly that a lot of them churn out substances that have not been rigorously tested for safety and efficacy.

As for nuclear plants, that may well look silly today, where the waste disposal problems have been if not solved then at least substantially mitigated, but do you really think that that progress would have happened if not for a strong lobby against "burn and dump" nuclear plants?

If you do, I invite you to take a look at the hardrock mining industry, where the waste disposal problems have simple technical solutions... But these are only implemented when substantial political pressure is applied. And if after examining that exhibit, you still think that substantial progress would have been made in nuclear waste management and disposal if the industry had been left to its own devices, then I have some $100 oil futures I want to sell.

And, of course, opposition to nuclear power might look less silly when you consider the fact that proliferation of peaceful nuclear technology makes it easier for countries to expand into - shall we say - less benign uses of the atom.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Thu May 29th, 2008 at 12:55:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: High oil prices? (none / 1)

Coal power is often critisised, but no consequences are drawn.

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Thu May 29th, 2008 at 02:13:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: High oil prices? (none / 1)

Really? No consequences? Then I suppose all those windmills dotting the landscape arrived there by the forces of the market, unfettered by any political aims to move the generation of electricity away from coal?

</snark>

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Thu May 29th, 2008 at 03:05:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: High oil prices? (4.00 / 3)

From the German perspective he is right. The last Government decided to fade out nuclear power not coal. And German Environmentalists (and Austrian even more so) are rather focused on nuclear energy.

by generic on Thu May 29th, 2008 at 03:34:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: High oil prices? (4.00 / 4)

BUND für Umwelt und Naturschutz Deutschland: Klima & Energie (Main German environmental NGO; part of Friends of the Earth International)

Mehr als 25 neue Kohlekraftwerke sollen in den nächsten Jahren in Deutschland gebaut werden. Allen voran wollen RWE, Vattenfall, e.on und EnBW wieder in die Technik von gestern investieren. Will Deutschland seine Klimaziele erreichen, darf es keine neuen Kohlekraftwerke geben.

Kampf gegen Kohle (Campaign of the German Green Party)

Kohlekraftwerke sind der Klimakiller Nr. 1. Dennoch planen Vattenfall, RWE & Co. mehr als 30 neue Kohlekraftwerke allein in Deutschland. Gruenes-klima.de informiert und bündelt den bundesweiten Widerstand. Hilf auch Du mit und stoppe die Klimakiller. In der Rubrik "Kampf gegen Kohle" findest du die aktuellsten Informationen zum Widerstand, eine interaktive Online-Karte, alle Ansprechpartner vor Ort und vieles mehr.

Being proper greens, the German greens oppose both nuclear and coal. I have to say that the intensity of the anti-coal sentiment has increased a lot since the end of the red-green government. But even in that government, it was the SPD (especially Clement and the economy ministry) that was on the side of coal, not the greens.

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Thu May 29th, 2008 at 04:43:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: High oil prices? (4.00 / 2)

And that is just the reason I voiced my loathing of Clement so often on ET.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Thu May 29th, 2008 at 04:46:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: High oil prices? (none / 0)

Let's see how many of the coal plants are really build in the end. I bet any time that not more than 5 of the more than 25 planned plants will be stopped. And then they are runnung for maybe 60 years.
But if there is any left party involved in the next federal gov, then nuclear is dead in Germany.

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Thu May 29th, 2008 at 05:12:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: High oil prices? (4.00 / 2)

Let's see. I bet just the opposite: for long I thought that these high numbers of 25, 40 coal power plants are wishful thinking on purpose (you push up market value by predicting expansion, and you gather support for the few projects you actually realise). I expect more news like this and this and this. And the Greens (as opposed to SPD NRW) are active protesting wherever there is a project.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Thu May 29th, 2008 at 06:14:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: High oil prices? (none / 1)

The vast German power market, controlled by mindless politicians is the wet dream of Swedish power executives. Vattenfall would so love to build half a dozen big reactors in southerns Sweden for the sole use of exporting power to Germany.

The viability of nuclear in Germany doesn't rest exclusively in the hands of mindless German politicians, but also in the hands of mindless Swedish politicians. ;)

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid on Fri May 30th, 2008 at 02:07:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: High oil prices? (none / 1)

And German Environmentalists (and Austrian even more so) are rather focused on nuclear energy.

Garzweiler II was a defeat, but it was something, I'd say.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Thu May 29th, 2008 at 04:47:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: High oil prices? (none / 1)

It is a question of proportion. If one compares the cost of a CO2 emission certificate for the industry with the taxes on gas for driving minus a share for street infrastructure, traffic police,... then you still end up with much higher taxation of gas than of coal.

Ok, one could argue that windmill and solar subsidies are 'anti-coal', but I think that big industrial power consumers still can make a deal with a power companies to get electricity essentially at the price as it comes from a coal fired plant, so I wouldn't directly count wind as anti-coal. And nuclear... There were really enough (good) discussions about nuclear in this forum...

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Thu May 29th, 2008 at 04:07:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: High oil prices? (none / 1)

I agree on one thing: the exemptions to "energy-intensive industries" from the Ökosteuer were a shame; but thank the Genosse der Bosse. This resulted in the nice situation that the German Railways pays the ecology tax for its electricity, while E.ON et al don't pay it for their coal power plants.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Thu May 29th, 2008 at 04:58:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: High oil prices? (none / 1)

That is totally ass-backwards.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 29th, 2008 at 05:22:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: High oil prices? (4.00 / 3)

Actually !x#&@! Clement, then head of Northrhine-Westphalias state, also had his hand in it. (Just found an old article about him threatening to kill the ecology tax in the Bundesrat, the upper house of the federal parliament that consists of representastives of satate governments.)

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Thu May 29th, 2008 at 06:03:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: High oil prices? (4.00 / 2)

One consequence of activism against coal that you may be too young to remember was the spread of smoke filters in Germany. Presently, the top issue is fine particulate matter, which would need more expensive smoke filters (in power plants - open-cast mines are another thing), so the companies continue to resist. I note Greenpeace, much dismissed by our lovely technocrats, did some actions on that front.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Thu May 29th, 2008 at 05:02:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: High oil prices? (4.00 / 3)

"I for one can do without a car, but I would not like living through a Danish winter without central heating."

But why should others subsidize your choice to live in a place where it's cold?

Furthermore, if I want to have an old car in my garage, which I only drive a few dozen miles a year, why should I have to pay a tax based on its lousy fuel economy?

It seems to me that the taxation system should try to account for externalities like pollution and try to stay away from penalties based purely on subjective bias.

by asdf on Thu May 29th, 2008 at 04:00:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: High oil prices? (none / 0)

Furthermore, if I want to have an old car in my garage, which I only drive a few dozen miles a year, why should I have to pay a tax based on its lousy fuel economy?

Well duh, because whatever the number of miles you drive a year, your emissions are less if you drive a more fuel efficient car. Are we to reduce CO2 emissions or just travel volumes?

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Thu May 29th, 2008 at 04:44:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: High oil prices? (4.00 / 4)

But that is taken care of by taxing fuel.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 29th, 2008 at 05:18:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: High oil prices? (4.00 / 3)

Yes. As long as we assume people as rational economic actors that makes decisions based on cost to won and not just cost to buy. If we on the other hand assume that people make their car purchases based on cost to buy, then placing some of the later societal costs for high CO2 emissions on the buying price makes sense.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Thu May 29th, 2008 at 05:35:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: High oil prices? (none / 1)

I'm still not convinced. If you want to buy an SUV to park it in your driveway and keep it all clean and shiny like a museum piece you should only pay taxes on the impact of building it.

If fuel taxes make you later decide it was a bad idea to buy the car because you didn't take into account the cost to own but only the cost to buy you can scrap the car and you've already paid tax on the environmental impact of building it.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 29th, 2008 at 05:44:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: High oil prices? (4.00 / 3)

And if you want to buy some barrels of gas to put in your driveway as a work of art, should you still be taxed on those?

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Thu May 29th, 2008 at 05:50:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: High oil prices? (none / 1)

That's just silly.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid on Fri May 30th, 2008 at 02:01:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: High oil prices? (none / 1)

You obviously must be refering to the ongoing debate about what art is, wtih special reference to the Oil Drum Art Movement. I rest my argument on the esteemed professor Richard Shustermans approach to oil drums as art:

"Were those transfigured drum cans art? Though clearly not part of the institutional artworld, they were just as obviously part of an installation work of deliberate design aimed at providing experiences that could be described as meaningful, thought-provoking, and aesthetically provocative. And the deliberative design of this installation suggests that it was obviously "about something" (a condition Danto deems necessary for being art).
I think a pragmatist aesthetic could permit this possibility"

And thus I have taken a stand in that debate too. (No, not really, I just googled up some oil drums as art. This and this was the first thing I found. I doubt either of their drums are filled, but it would not make it less arty if they were.)

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Fri May 30th, 2008 at 05:04:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: High oil prices? (none / 0)

I refuse to agree that installation art is even art and as we have concluded earlier, my views on architecture and art are close to those of Italian fascists. ;)

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid on Fri May 30th, 2008 at 05:41:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: High oil prices? (none / 0)

What, Stonehenge is not art?

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri May 30th, 2008 at 05:45:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: High oil prices? (none / 0)

I thought it was an almanac?

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid on Fri May 30th, 2008 at 06:10:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: High oil prices? (none / 0)

Among other things.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri May 30th, 2008 at 06:15:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: High oil prices? (none / 0)

Car purchases, especially a new car, are rather big investments. I think people do really think about the future costs. One can enforce, that every seller of a car has to declare the amount of gas a car needs per 100km or something like that, so that people really know what they are buying, but I think this anyhow already now the case, too.
Then what is a rational decision? Is it a rational decision to go to the cinema on saturday evening? Sure. And in the same way it is a rational decision to buy a car, which has more power than neccessary. When the society decides we can emit the amount X of CO2 next year, then it is the usual way to let people buy shares of this emission rights from the state (that is equicalent to fuel tax, which is readjusted somehow to match the overall target). It is market economy to assume that those who are willing to pay the highest price, are those who will have the most usage.

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Thu May 29th, 2008 at 05:57:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: High oil prices? (none / 0)

No, the market economy assumes that those willing to pay the most are those who have the most money.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 29th, 2008 at 06:01:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: High oil prices? (none / 0)

That of course plays a role, too. But the idea, that automatically richer people drive bigger cars is not true. There is certainly a correlation, especially in the lower incomes, but this is only on a statistical basis, not on an individual basis. There are people for which a car has a high status symbol charakter, and those for which this is not the case. So some people buy big cars on credit and some richer buy smaller cars of their pocket.
So for making taxes according to what people can afford there are other places, like income tax or direct payments (or wealth tax or whatever you imagine), but taxation around driving should focus on the environmental impact only.

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Thu May 29th, 2008 at 06:14:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: High oil prices? (none / 1)

How do you factor in the large marketplace for second-hand cars? And how about the many "classic" cars I see in my town, which would be considered junk by most economists but are desired by those with a Porsche, or Jeep, or VW, or Cadillac fetish?

I would prefer to more tightly couple the problem and the cost of the problem. If the problem is the burning of oil, then the tax should be applied to that part of the process, not the device that actually does the burning...

by asdf on Thu May 29th, 2008 at 06:10:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: High oil prices? (4.00 / 2)

Was this implied as answer to my comment? Because you seem to want the same as I do.

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Thu May 29th, 2008 at 06:18:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: High oil prices? (none / 0)

Because "deciding" to live in the high temperate latitudes is not a decision so much as an accident of birth. If you want to move everyone out of the those areas, you will have to move a perceptible fraction of the Europe's population (something on the order of 10-20 %, depending on where you draw the line). Not to mention giving up a perceptible fraction of our available arable land.

Upthread, I entered into a discussion of the merits of taxing environmental externalities purely on the basis of their environmental impact vs. taxing based on both environmental and social considerations.

The short version of my stance is that in the ideal world, environmental taxes should serve environmental concerns and redistributive taxes should serve to redistribute the wealth. In the real world, however, there is a realpolitik argument for not making environmental taxes too regressive and not hitting necessary subsistence goods too hard.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sat May 31st, 2008 at 03:39:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

High oil prices? Tax cars & jet fuel! | 67 comments (67 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

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