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Poemless would also want me to add to the previous a parallel trend among Central European Russophobes, insisting on differentiating themselves as Central European to distinguish from the 'russkies'. (Though I honestly don't know how much, if any, role that plays.)

Quite a bit in the genesis of the modern use of the term if you look at the debates in the seventies and eighties.  Quite prominent a theme in fact in the contributions of your co-national, Gyorgy Konrad. To be fair this part of the argument was at least as much intended to counter anti-East European prejudices among Westerners as an expression of anti-Russian prejudice. But the latter is a real factor.

by MarekNYC on Sat May 10th, 2008 at 03:33:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Quite a bit in the genesis of the modern use of the term if you look at the debates in the seventies and eighties. Quite prominent a theme in fact in the contributions of your co-national, Gyorgy Konrad.

I must admit I had no clue. Intrigued, I started off for a search; and so far I find there was apparently a so-called "Central Europe Debate", in which Konrád participated; kicked off by Milan Kundera's 1984 essay "The Tragedy of Central Europe", positing that in Central Europe is a part of the West kidnapped by the East, where intellectuals fight for European values against Soviet-Russian "de-Europeanisation", and that Central European intellectualism was the real center of European civilisation. That's strong tobacco indeed. Apparently, his strongest critic in the ensuing debate was emigrant Russian poet Joseph Brodsky. I am still reading.

(At any rate, while I may have absorbed Cewntral Europe myths created by the eighties dissident movement, I doubt my geography class curriculum was influenced by Konrád & co.)

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Sat May 10th, 2008 at 04:58:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That's when it hit the Western mainstream but the talking points began getting developed in the late seventies samizdat. Interestingly the mainstream Polish dissidents tended to be less Russophobic in that way. That might have something to do with the dueling Polish historical traditions of left nationalism - politically very Russophobic, but culturally Russophile and identifying strongly with the Westernizer tradition and right nationalism - politically Russophile but seeing 'real' Russia as the Slavophile one and thus as something utterly alien from and inferior to 'the West'.
by MarekNYC on Sat May 10th, 2008 at 05:24:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I just found an essay (sorry, in Hungarian) giving a historical overview of the meanings and political uses of Central Europe, as well as Eastern-Central Europe and Eastern Europe. It appears that all the meaning variations I named for post-1990 existed earlier: ECE appeared in German schemes for Central European hegemony, an Eastern Europe West of Russia-Belarus-Ukraine appeared in between-world-wars Polish-Czech nationalist historiography. The article also claims that (all of) Germany was counted into CE from the emergence of the term in the late 18th century.

On the Central Europe Debate, this article both connects and separates it from a debate among historians about Central Europe as separate cultural region, which started in the seventies.. E.g. the intellectuals were really for the re-joining of the two sides of the Iron Curtain, not an identity separate also from the West (but a purer essence of it if we look at Kundera).

Hm, maybe I should write a diary.

Or maybe you are already better-read for that :-)

At any rate, thanks for sending me on this search.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Sat May 10th, 2008 at 05:20:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, as I said it was also push back against the longstanding 'othering' of 'Eastern' Europe that started with the Enlightenment. (See Larry Wolff's Inventing   Eastern Europe: The Map of Civilization on the Mind of the Enlightenment This trope reached its most virulent form in the German Ostforschung tradition. Interestingly, if you look at the Adenauer period, you see the notion of Germany as a bulwark against the Asiatic Slav hordes being reconfigured into a tool of furthering European integration and opposition to traditional national-konservativ and voelkisch constructions of German national identity.
by MarekNYC on Sat May 10th, 2008 at 05:33:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
it was also push back against the longstanding 'othering' of 'Eastern' Europe that started with the Enlightenment.

That must have been muddled up with the German factor at least since the  rise of Prussia in the Seven Years' War. If my source is right, the Central Europe idea got traction in the West in the form of the German Threat (and in Prussia/Germany Mitteleuropa became popular in the form of natural hegemonic area for regional dominance). Then again, it also claims that the East-West division idea finally supplanted the North-South idea (in which Russia was the Giant of the North) only with the Crimean War.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Sat May 10th, 2008 at 05:44:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I hope NordicStorm won't get angry at me for this thread hijack, but I can't pass up another thing I now read.

Apparently, a central theme in the historians' debate on Central Europe from the seventies was the development of feudalism as something separating out such a region, in particular the second serfdom. Which brings me to thing about an earlier era. Catholics contend that what connects Europe historically above all is its common Christian past. But the spread of Christianity was just as much the spread of the then modern society model of feudalism.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Sat May 10th, 2008 at 05:35:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yup. Serfdom never really fully recovered from the Black Death west of the Elbe, but it came back with a vengeance in Prussia and points East. A good starting point on it if you're interested is a classic collection of essays The Origins of Backwardness in Eastern Europe ed. Daniel Chirot.
by MarekNYC on Sat May 10th, 2008 at 05:39:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Shouldn't that subthread be compiled in a diary sooner or later ?

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Sat May 10th, 2008 at 08:19:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yeah, see one of ther above comments. But so many interesting issues came up in my reading yesterday, I fear it could turn into another 4,000-word diary if I write it...

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Sun May 11th, 2008 at 05:04:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, that's 4000 words I'd like to read... Few diaries would be more topical on ET than stuff about European identities

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Sun May 11th, 2008 at 05:33:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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