Sasha Hemon, or, Turning sad European Lemons into delicious American Lemonade! | 33 comments (33 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

Ze jar for ze teepz (4.00 / 6)

How come no one ever identifies as a "Herzegovinian?"

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.

by poemless on Tue Jun 24th, 2008 at 06:51:09 PM EST

Re: Ze jar for ze teepz (4.00 / 2)

Well, I would not so identify even were I a one-of-those. Who else could pronounce it? How could you toast the Queen before the beer got warm?

Speaking of writers with recognisable geographic referents, one thing I really like about William Gibson's latest is the parts of Vancouver he describes that I know very very well. I can hear the gulls cry at 0200h....But I am sure your fellow is better, and I will ferret out his works like an old stoat.

by PIGL (stevec@boreal.gmail@com) on Tue Jun 24th, 2008 at 07:03:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The Austro-Hungarian empire (none / 1)

My grandfather, BTW, went to his grave regretting the demise of the Empire. In retrospect, he had a point. Kinda like Yugoslavia except in black and white with long dresses and champagne. Plus, what is the word, schl"amperei, which I much prefer to ruthless, mirthless, efficiency. If only they had just attacked Serbia without waiting for permission from the bloody Prussians!

by PIGL (stevec@boreal.gmail@com) on Tue Jun 24th, 2008 at 07:11:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Austro-Hungarian empire (4.00 / 2)

There is a novel where, at the end of WWI an Austro-Hungarian military unit is being disbanded and everyone is happy to be able to return to their newly independent ethnic-based countries, except for the Jew.

Does anyone know what novel this is? I read about this scene in some article once.

About Yugoslavia: I have had a number of conversations with Croats of my generation (I'm 32) and slightly older. The older Croats and the girls in my generation tended to see the breakup of Yugoslavia and Tudjman's flavour of Croatian nationalism and insane. The boys in my generation (late teens at the time of the start of the Yugoslav wars) were all nationalists.

In relation to this I also had a discussion with a number of people from former Austria-Hungary and all of them agreed that Spain is a "big country" and so I couldn't relate to their "small country" concerns about national independence.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jun 25th, 2008 at 02:59:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Austro-Hungarian empire (none / 1)

"Basques? What Basques?"

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.

by poemless on Wed Jun 25th, 2008 at 11:59:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Ze jar for ze teepz (none / 1)

With that title, I thought Sasha hemon was a neocon and you were deconstructing an [Europe.Is.Doomed™ Alert] op-ed... Then I read the diary...

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jun 25th, 2008 at 03:01:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Ze jar for ze teepz (none / 1)

When have I ever written an [Europe.Is.Doomed^TM Alert] diary?

I do admit to using a controversial headline to get your attention though. :)

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.

by poemless on Wed Jun 25th, 2008 at 10:48:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Ze jar for ze teepz (none / 0)

That was not a rhetorical question, btw.

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.

by poemless on Wed Jun 25th, 2008 at 01:53:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Ze jar for ze teepz (none / 1)

They'd be Croats, Bosnian Croats to be exact, and I believe there is a certain sense of regional identity among them.

by MarekNYC on Wed Jun 25th, 2008 at 11:50:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Ze jar for ze teepz (none / 0)

This is so confusing...

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.

by poemless on Thu Jun 26th, 2008 at 10:47:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Ze jar for ze teepz (none / 1)

For some time during the Yugoslav Wars, the Croat part of Bosnia configured itself as a self-proclaimed Republic of "Herceg-Bosna". There was a Muslim part, and a Serbian part, "Republika Srpska". The West managed to convince the Croats and Muslims to merge back together into a Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina which, together with the Republika Srpska makes up Bosnia and Herzegovina.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jun 26th, 2008 at 10:54:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Ze jar for ze teepz (none / 0)

Oh, that makes perfect sense...

I'm being sarcastic. I used to think the term "Balkanization" just meant, "breaking up into separate parts because people refuse to get along." But it appears to be a bit more complicated, doesn't it?

Here's how I imagined it worked:

There was Yugoslavia. In Yugoslavia lived Serbs, Bosnians, Croats, Slovenians and er, maybe Montenegrins and Macedonians. They fought each other for a reason I do not know and split into their respective groups. It may or may not have had something to do with Muslims...

But if there now exists a country called Bosnia and Herzegovina which is comprised of a Bosnian-Croatian piece and a Serbian piece... meaning they're all living in some kind of peace in one country (which I know is possible because they do that in my neighborhood too), what was the point of splitting Yugoslavia up into all those countries? Seems like splitting up cells and getting the same DNA in each one. And I don't even know what the ethnic or religious differences between everyone are or why they would necessitate violence and separation. Aleksandar Hemon is identifies as Bosnian, but his heritage is Ukrainian and Serbian, and he's not Muslim. I'm so confused... What the hell makes Bosnia not Croatia or Serbia, besides a map?

I wish someone with divine patience and no horses in the race would diary this.

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.

by poemless on Thu Jun 26th, 2008 at 02:59:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Ze jar for ze teepz (none / 1)

Bosnia was arguably the most ethnically diverse of the Yugoslav republics and the (plurality) Bosniak population (mostly Muslim) found themselves in the cross-fire of the war between Croatia and Serbia. It was in the interest of the Bosnian Croats and the Bosniaks to federate because the Bosnian Serbs had taken 50% of the territory. See wikipedia for maps of the ethnic distribution within Bosnia.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jun 26th, 2008 at 03:08:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Ze jar for ze teepz (none / 1)

Oh, the fact that the Croats and the Bosniaks federated doesn't mean they didn't start out ethnically cleansing each other. See Mostar.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jun 26th, 2008 at 03:46:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Ze jar for ze teepz (none / 1)

Maybe I would be less frustrated if I stopped operating under the assumption that there is a logical reason (indefensible, but internally logical) for everyone deciding to kill each other.

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.

by poemless on Thu Jun 26th, 2008 at 03:55:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Ze jar for ze teepz (none / 0)

Yes.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jun 26th, 2008 at 03:59:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Ze jar for ze teepz (none / 1)

If you want some fun complications of ethnicity in the Balkans and central Europe, there is this old thread at language hat :

languagehat.com: PEACHES IN CLUJ.

The Szeklers are an interesting group. They claim to be a people related to, but distinct from, the Hungarians. Their traditions claim descent from Attila's Huns, but I don't think even they believe that. (Although it's surely no less likely than descent from the Roman colonists of Dacia.)
Other theories have them as Pechenegs, as Hungarized Avars, or as an offshoot of the Magyar Hungarians themselves. The Szeklers dislike this last one BTW; they insist that they are distinct from, though closely connected to, the main Hungarian stock.
There are some fascinating peculiarities about them. For instance, before they were brought firmly under the Hapsburg crown in the 18th century, they were largely self-governing. And their basic units of government were village communes known as "tens". These is eerily reminiscent of the habit of many Central Asian horse nomads. The Mongols, for instance, organized their societies along military lines, with the squad of ten horsemen -- the "ten" -- being a basic unit.

languagehat.com: PEACHES IN CLUJ.

The Germans of Romania come in at least two flavors, BTW -- Saxons and "Flemings". The Flemings weren't actually Flemings, but they came from a different part of Germany than the Saxons, and spoke a different dialect. I have the impression that the two eventually grew together into Siebenburgerdeutsch -- both waves arrived in the middle ages, so there was time -- but I'm not completely sure of that, and welcome correction.
Oh, and there's also a small third wave of Germans from Germany who came to be mine bosses and technicians during the 19th and early 20th centuries. (Our landlord is one of those -- his grandfather was a Sudetendeutscher who came here between the wars.) This group was never more than one or two percent of the total German population before 1989, but my completely anecdotal and unscientific impression is that it's probably now more like five or ten percent of the ever-dwindling remnant German population. I'm really not sure why.
Anyhow.

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères

by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Thu Jun 26th, 2008 at 11:11:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Sasha Hemon, or, Turning sad European Lemons into delicious American Lemonade! | 33 comments (33 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

Top Diaries

Ireland 2023 Rugby World Cup Squad selected

Integrating Ukraine Into NATO Family

Leinster's demise and Munster's hope

Southern Irish disinterest in Northern Ireland affairs

The end is Nigh?

Joe Biden. America's Interventionist Hero

Recent Diaries

NATO Posing the What If Question

Bi-Partisan Effort to Undermine Democracy

June 2023

Ireland 2023 Rugby World Cup Squad selected

Integrating Ukraine Into NATO Family

Southern Irish disinterest in Northern Ireland affairs

Incident Ukrainian War Display Gets Int'l Attention

German Climate Activists Group Outlawed

Leinster's demise and Munster's hope

Joe Biden. America's Interventionist Hero

Targeted Assassinations: a Bankrupt Strategy

The end is Nigh?

Hijacking Peace by Zelensky for War Escalation

UA Drone Attack On Moscow

May 2023

US Provoked Conflict In Europe

U.S. Will Be Ousted From Middle-East

Settler Extremism Blessed by Jerusalem Leaders

Occasional Series