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How come no one ever identifies as a "Herzegovinian?"

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.
by poemless on Tue Jun 24th, 2008 at 06:51:09 PM EST
Well, I would not so identify even were I a one-of-those. Who else could pronounce it? How could you toast the Queen before the beer got warm?

Speaking of writers with recognisable geographic referents, one thing I really like about William Gibson's latest is the parts of Vancouver he describes that I know very very well. I can hear the gulls cry at 0200h....But I am sure your fellow is better, and I will ferret out his works like an old stoat.

by PIGL (stevec@boreal.gmail@com) on Tue Jun 24th, 2008 at 07:03:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
My grandfather, BTW, went to his grave regretting the demise of the Empire. In retrospect, he had a point. Kinda like Yugoslavia except in black and white with long dresses and champagne. Plus, what is the word, schl"amperei, which I much prefer to ruthless, mirthless, efficiency. If only they had just attacked Serbia without waiting for permission from the bloody Prussians!
by PIGL (stevec@boreal.gmail@com) on Tue Jun 24th, 2008 at 07:11:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There is a novel where, at the end of WWI an Austro-Hungarian military unit is being disbanded and everyone is happy to be able to return to their newly independent ethnic-based countries, except for the Jew.

Does anyone know what novel this is? I read about this scene in some article once.

About Yugoslavia: I have had a number of conversations with Croats of my generation (I'm 32) and slightly older. The older Croats and the girls in my generation tended to see the breakup of Yugoslavia and Tudjman's flavour of Croatian nationalism and insane. The boys in my generation (late teens at the time of the start of the Yugoslav wars) were all nationalists.

In relation to this I also had a discussion with a number of people from former Austria-Hungary and all of them agreed that Spain is a "big country" and so I couldn't relate to their "small country" concerns about national independence.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jun 25th, 2008 at 02:59:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"Basques? What Basques?"

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.
by poemless on Wed Jun 25th, 2008 at 11:59:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
With that title, I thought Sasha hemon was a neocon and you were deconstructing an [Europe.Is.Doomed™ Alert] op-ed... Then I read the diary...

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jun 25th, 2008 at 03:01:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
When have I ever written an [Europe.Is.DoomedTM Alert] diary?

I do admit to using a controversial headline to get your attention though. :)  

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.

by poemless on Wed Jun 25th, 2008 at 10:48:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That was not a rhetorical question, btw.

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.
by poemless on Wed Jun 25th, 2008 at 01:53:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
They'd be Croats, Bosnian Croats to be exact, and I believe there is a certain sense of regional identity among them.
by MarekNYC on Wed Jun 25th, 2008 at 11:50:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
This is so confusing...  

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.
by poemless on Thu Jun 26th, 2008 at 10:47:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
For some time during the Yugoslav Wars, the Croat part of Bosnia configured itself as a self-proclaimed Republic of "Herceg-Bosna". There was a Muslim part, and a Serbian part, "Republika Srpska". The West managed to convince the Croats and Muslims to merge back together into a Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina which, together with the Republika Srpska makes up Bosnia and Herzegovina.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jun 26th, 2008 at 10:54:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh, that makes perfect sense...  

I'm being sarcastic.  I used to think the term "Balkanization" just meant, "breaking up into separate parts because people refuse to get along."  But it appears to be a bit more complicated, doesn't it?  

Here's how I imagined it worked:

There was Yugoslavia.  In Yugoslavia lived Serbs, Bosnians, Croats, Slovenians and er, maybe Montenegrins and Macedonians.  They fought each other for a reason I do not know and split into their respective groups.  It may or may not have had something to do with Muslims...

But if there now exists a country called Bosnia and Herzegovina which is comprised of a Bosnian-Croatian piece and a Serbian piece...  meaning they're all living in some kind of peace in one country (which I know is possible because they do that in my neighborhood too), what was the point of splitting Yugoslavia up into all those countries?  Seems like splitting up cells and getting the same DNA in each one.  And I don't even know what the ethnic or religious differences between everyone are or why they would necessitate violence and separation.  Aleksandar Hemon is identifies as Bosnian, but his heritage is Ukrainian and Serbian, and he's not Muslim.  I'm so confused...  What the hell makes Bosnia not Croatia or Serbia, besides a map?  

I wish someone with divine patience and no horses in the race would diary this.

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.

by poemless on Thu Jun 26th, 2008 at 02:59:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Bosnia was arguably the most ethnically diverse of the Yugoslav republics and the (plurality) Bosniak population (mostly Muslim) found themselves in the cross-fire of the war between Croatia and Serbia. It was in the interest of the Bosnian Croats and the Bosniaks to federate because the Bosnian Serbs had taken 50% of the territory. See wikipedia for maps of the ethnic distribution within Bosnia.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jun 26th, 2008 at 03:08:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh, the fact that the Croats and the Bosniaks federated doesn't mean they didn't start out ethnically cleansing each other. See Mostar.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jun 26th, 2008 at 03:46:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Maybe I would be less frustrated if I stopped operating under the assumption that there is a logical reason (indefensible, but internally logical) for everyone deciding to kill each other.


"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.
by poemless on Thu Jun 26th, 2008 at 03:55:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jun 26th, 2008 at 03:59:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If you want some fun complications of ethnicity in the Balkans and central Europe, there is this old thread at language hat :

languagehat.com: PEACHES IN CLUJ.

The Szeklers are an interesting group. They claim to be a people related to, but distinct from, the Hungarians. Their traditions claim descent from Attila's Huns, but I don't think even they believe that. (Although it's surely no less likely than descent from the Roman colonists of Dacia.)

Other theories have them as Pechenegs, as Hungarized Avars, or as an offshoot of the Magyar Hungarians themselves. The Szeklers dislike this last one BTW; they insist that they are distinct from, though closely connected to, the main Hungarian stock.

There are some fascinating peculiarities about them. For instance, before they were brought firmly under the Hapsburg crown in the 18th century, they were largely self-governing. And their basic units of government were village communes known as "tens". These is eerily reminiscent of the habit of many Central Asian horse nomads. The Mongols, for instance, organized their societies along military lines, with the squad of ten horsemen -- the "ten" -- being a basic unit.

languagehat.com: PEACHES IN CLUJ.

The Germans of Romania come in at least two flavors, BTW -- Saxons and "Flemings". The Flemings weren't actually Flemings, but they came from a different part of Germany than the Saxons, and spoke a different dialect. I have the impression that the two eventually grew together into Siebenburgerdeutsch -- both waves arrived in the middle ages, so there was time -- but I'm not completely sure of that, and welcome correction.

Oh, and there's also a small third wave of Germans from Germany who came to be mine bosses and technicians during the 19th and early 20th centuries. (Our landlord is one of those -- his grandfather was a Sudetendeutscher who came here between the wars.) This group was never more than one or two percent of the total German population before 1989, but my completely anecdotal and unscientific impression is that it's probably now more like five or ten percent of the ever-dwindling remnant German population. I'm really not sure why.

Anyhow.



Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Thu Jun 26th, 2008 at 11:11:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I wonder why he was unable to write in his native Bosnian.

Maybe he is like a good friend of mine, interpreter at my wedding when the mayor did his discourse, Stefan, who also is a Yugoslav national, family originally from Montenegro but he grew up in Istanbul and went to international school in Switzerland. Speaks German, Turkish, Greek (his mom is greek), Italian, French, Spanish, Portuguese, and English, but not a word of Serbo-Croate.

I always thought it would be odd to carry around a passport of a country whose language one does not speak, but people do it.

Poor Sasha Hemon. He may be in beautiful Chicago, nicest city in the US (caveat, I've never been to San Francisco) but he is still stuck in the United States. Like being in Lahore Pakistan...beautiful and cool city plumb in the middle of an ideological shithole.

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Tue Jun 24th, 2008 at 11:47:33 PM EST
He writes in Bosnian as well, for a magazine there, I believe.  His published books are in English.

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.
by poemless on Wed Jun 25th, 2008 at 10:45:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I've been nursing a parallel theory that we confer official museum-grade status on writers from ethnic groupings we feel guilty about - 'we' meaning the mostly white, mostly middle class, slightly angsty and concerned audience which reads what's usually called 'literature'.

This isn't about talent, or the lack of it. More that there will always be talent which isn't picked up because it doesn't tickle the ethnic 'oh, the horror' guilt buds in the right way. Even when there's plenty of horror and brutality - which seems to be another essential contemporary ingredient.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Wed Jun 25th, 2008 at 05:46:26 AM EST
Perhaps Hemon's success is due to its unclassifiability. Even to himself. Freed by uncertainty, strangeness.

Chialvo suggests that natural occurring neural networks (biological brains and such) pay more attention to un-accommodated situations (information) rather than well-known situations (or information). Because, if it was the other way, the system would tend to specialisation; in other words, loss of information, closure to the outside world.

by findmeaDoorIntoSummer on Wed Jun 25th, 2008 at 06:21:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's all about the amygdala.  Memory, flight or fight response, fear conditioning, sensory systems...  

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.
by poemless on Wed Jun 25th, 2008 at 11:54:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I've been nursing a parallel theory that we confer official museum-grade status on writers from ethnic groupings we feel guilty about - 'we' meaning the mostly white, mostly middle class, slightly angsty and concerned audience which reads what's usually called 'literature'.

Perhaps less theory than fact.  Which, as you point out, doesn't necessarily reflect the talent of those who are conferred the honor, but perhaps the opportunities available to them.  The arts are often funded by charitable foundations, philanthropists, grant organizations.  In fact, Hemon's last novel has a character trying to get money from a private foundation to pay for his trip to Europe.  Anyway, often these people and organizations have agenda to promote this or that ideal, advance the success of this or that group.  I suppose having a tragic story helps in the acquisition of funds.  And I suppose some individuals feel helpless in the face of tragedy and want to make a difference in some small way.  I suppose some just want to make a solid karmic investment.  

And actually experiencing trauma like war or ethnic persecution etc. often drives people to write, create, to work through it, to "tell their story."  I guess it is possible for people with normal, privileged, safe, mundane lives to have something interesting to say.  But it's so much more exciting to read about people who have faces these character building obstacles and either overcome them or become martyrs.  [Kidding on the square.]  Also, the things that happen to Joe Blow down the street have happened to an individual.  Why should we care what he dreams about?  We all have dreams.  But if your people have been subjected to genocide, systematic racism, etc., your story balloons in significance because you are (we believe and no one corrects us) not just writing about your personal experience, but that experience of a whole "People."  Also, because of our collective guilt, we're also probably less inclined to be critical of such authors.  Like, we've done enough damage and should just keep our mouths shut now.  So no one tells Gary Shteyngart he's really not that great.  

All this said, Hemon really is that great.  Even if some people probably only read him or praise him or give him money because they're trying to deal with their own issues.  Ironically?, I'm fairly confident Hemon belongs to the "white, mostly middle class, slightly angsty and concerned audience which reads what's usually called 'literature'."

BTW, is Bosnian an "ethnic group?"  

Frankly, now that I think about it, I'm not even sure what an "ethnic group" is...

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.

by poemless on Wed Jun 25th, 2008 at 11:39:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I meant more that any time certain kinds of genocide and horror will be hawt, and others - not.

We had Günter Grass after WWII. Who the hell under the age of 30 has heard of Günter Grass now?

We also had British working class fiction. There's not so much of that around at the moment - but there is quite a bit of immigrant ethnic colour (of all sorts) fiction.

I'd lay reasonable odds that a great immigrant novel by an Eastern European will be discovered by the UK's literary industry within the next year or three - and there will be at least one rape scene in it, and probably also shocking scenes of violent human trafficking.

In the US Katrina fiction is just about starting to make an appearance. Iraq isn't - it's still too real to be mythologised. But give it five to ten years.

We don't have:

Native American fiction
Puerto Rican fiction
Indonesian fiction
Amazonian rain forest fiction
Etc...

It's not that these aren't being written - I'm sure they are. It's not that there isn't the potential for cathartic brutality and violence in those stories, because there certainly is. It's not that someone somewhere isn't reading them, or even writing abou them. It's more that they're not relevant to Western interests, so they'll remain outside the usual circuit of culture industry shindigs -  forever invisible to the New York Times and Guardian best-seller lists, which will continue to be populated by Dan Brown, Who Moved My Cheese?, and novels about married women meeting old boyfriends.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu Jun 26th, 2008 at 09:23:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
We don't have:
Native American fiction

Sherman Alexie is a literary rockstar on our shores...

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.

by poemless on Fri Jun 27th, 2008 at 10:43:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
He's awesome.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jun 27th, 2008 at 10:53:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I should have guessed there would be an exception for that niche:

Interview: Sherman Alexie | By genre | guardian.co.uk Books

Now 41, Alexie was one of Granta's 20 best American novelists under 40 in 1996, and was among the New Yorker's 20 best writers of the 21st century. Some critics have suspected that his literary territory (his titles are often flagged with "Indian" or "reservation") may have inflated critical sympathy. While James Buchan in these pages described his latest novel, Flight, as a "short-winded epic", it was praised in the New York Times as a "narrative stripped to its core, all rage and heart".

Flight is set on the underside of "sanitised and computerised" Seattle, amid destitute drunks, child-abusing foster carers and "kid jail". The teenage narrator Zits, an Irish-Indian "half-breed" with bad skin and no parents, meets a terrorist named Justice. Zits plans a shoot-out at a bank, but is hit by a guard's bullet and time-travels into other lives, including a child at Little Bighorn in 1876, a flight instructor betrayed by a would-be suicide pilot, and an Indian wino who turns out to be his father. Alexie has worked with charities for the homeless, yet the novel, although trenchant, seems less confrontational than earlier work. September 11 changed him, Alexie says, by revealing the lethal "end game of tribalism - when you become so identified with only one thing, one tribe, that other people are just metaphors to you".

I'm sure he's great, but this does sound heavy on the guilt and horror buds, perhaps a little.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Fri Jun 27th, 2008 at 08:03:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
wow, good heads-up.

the noo yoika stories are genius to me...  :)

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Wed Jun 25th, 2008 at 10:24:10 AM EST
This seems like as good a place as any to put in one of my semi-annual plugs for Writings from an Unbound Europe, published by my charming friends at Northwestern University. They oh so humbly describe their project as "the most comprehensive series of literature in translation into any language from the former Communist countries of Eastern Europe. The series makes available to the English-reading public the most interesting and vital works of contemporary prose and poetry from this region. To date, it includes titles from Bosnia, Croatia, the Czech Republic, Estonia, Hungary, Lithuania, Poland, Romania, Russia, Serbia, Slovakia, Slovenia, and Ukraine."  Maybe DoDo can write them with some geographical corrections...  

This is where I first learned of Dubravka Ugresic, who is now one of my favorite writers.

And in the latest incidence of inevitably crossed paths, it appears Hemon is now teaching at ... Northwestern University.  

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.

by poemless on Wed Jun 25th, 2008 at 12:18:40 PM EST
European Tribune - Comments - Sasha Hemon, or, Turning sad European Lemons into delicious American Lemonade!European Tribune - Comments - Sasha Hemon, or, Turning sad European Lemons into delicious American Lemonade!
Moja wierna mowo,
służyłem tobie.
Co noc stawiałem przed tobą miseczki z kolorami,
żebyś miała i brzozę i konika polnego i gila
zachowanych w mojej pamięci.
Faithful mother tongue,
I have been serving you.
Every night, I used to set before you little bowls of colors
so you could have your birch, your cricket, your finch
as preserved in my memory.
Trwało to dużo lat.
Byłaś moją ojczyzną bo zabrakło innej.
Myślałem że będziesz także pośredniczką
pomiędzy mną i dobrymi ludźmi,
choćby ich było dwudziestu, dziesięciu,
albo nie urodzili się jeszcze.
This lasted many years.
You were my native land; I lacked any other.
I believed that you would also be a messenger
between me and some good people
even if they were few, twenty, ten
or not born, as yet.
Teraz przyznaję się do zwątpienia.
Są chwile kiedy wydaje się, że zmarnowałem życie.
Bo ty jesteś mową upodlonych,
mową nierozumnych i nienawidzących
siebie bardziej może od innych narodów,
mową konfidentów,
mową pomieszanych,
chorych na własną niewinność.
Now, I confess my doubt.
There are moments when it seems to me I have squandered my life.
For you are a tongue of the debased,
of the unreasonable, hating themselves
even more than they hate other nations,
a tongue of informers,
a tongue of the confused,
ill with their own innocence.
Ale bez ciebie kim jestem.
Tylko szkolarzem gdzieś w odległym kraju,
a success, bez lęku i poniżeń.
No tak, kim jestem bez ciebie.
Filozofem takim jak każdy.
But without you, who am I?
Only a scholar in a distant country,
a success, without fears and humiliations.
Yes, who am I without you?
A philosopher like everyone else.
Rozumiem, to ma być moje wychowanie:
gloria indywidualności odjęta,
Grzesznikowi z moralitetu
czerwony dywan podścieła Wielki Chwał,
a w tym samym czasie latarnia magiczna
rzuca na płótno obrazy ludzkiej i boskiej udręki.
I understand, this is meant as my education:
the glory of individuality is taken away,
Fortune spreads a red carpet
before the sinner in a morality play
while on the linen backdrop a magic lantern throws images of human and divine torment.
Moja wierna mowo,
może to jednak ja muszę ciebie ratować.
Więc będę dalej stawiać przed tobą miseczki z kolorami
jasnymi i czystymi jeżeli to możliwe,
bo w nieszczęściu potrzebny jakiś ład czy piękno.
My faithful mother tongue,
perhaps after all it's I who must try to save you.
So I will continue to set before you little bowls of colors
bright and pure if possible,
for what is needed in misfortune is a little order and beauty.

translation by Czeslaw Milosz and Robert Pinsky with minor modifications.

by MarekNYC on Thu Jun 26th, 2008 at 12:15:08 AM EST
Who is the author?

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.
by poemless on Thu Jun 26th, 2008 at 11:18:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Oops, it's a Milosz poem, written in the sixties during his extended period as a prof in Berkeley and non-person in Poland.
by MarekNYC on Thu Jun 26th, 2008 at 01:45:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks for the clarification.  

For a fleeting moment I thought you might be some rockstar poet who'd worked with the likes of Milosz and Pinsky!

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.

by poemless on Thu Jun 26th, 2008 at 02:38:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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