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European Salon de News, Discussion et Klatsch - 10 June | 146 comments (146 topical, editorial, 0 hidden)
Let them eat cake (4.00 / 2)
Food and gasoline: Soaring prices hit the poor hardest - Local - Kentucky.com
[Carol] Sanders doesn't have a car, but rising gasoline prices are still hitting her hard.

She earns $6 an hour working through a temporary employment service. The temp service provides transportation to and from the job, but the cost of the ride recently went up to $4 each way, or $8 a day.

That means she's at work more than an hour every day before she even pays the cost of getting there and back.

After taxes and transportation costs, Sanders said her take-home pay is about $230 a week.

She is now living in an efficiency apartment and paying $100 a week in rent. And she's putting aside $100 a week in hopes of saving up enough to reunite her family by the time school starts this fall.

That leaves her $30 a week for food. And with grocery prices rising drastically, it doesn't go far.

Sanders said she hasn't bought milk in two or three weeks because the prices have gotten so high.



... all progress depends on the unreasonable mensch.
(apologies to G.B. Shaw)
by marco on Mon Jun 9th, 2008 at 04:25:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Let them eat cake (4.00 / 3)
Well at least the social safety net will look after her.

Oh, I mean the wonders of charitable work will look after her. Assuming she joins a church or something.

But hey, imagine how much worse her life would be if she was in, say, France. She might very well be unemployed. Better off, but unemployed, and that would be awful.

The US is fucked up, and the rise in oil prices is just exposing that: the plight of the poor has bugger all to do with oil and everything to do with the way the system treats them.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Jun 9th, 2008 at 04:52:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That's the third time you're posting this (none / 1)
and your conclusion is seriously unfair. We're saying that price increases are inevitable, and their consequences predictable, not that they are nice.

I have been arguing for a gas tax combined with revenue mitigation for the poor (and ideally, investment in public transport and similar infrastructure) for years. Why blame me when I note the price rises that I have been announcing?

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Mon Jun 9th, 2008 at 05:09:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: That's the third time you're posting this (none / 1)
I am not blaming you specifically.  I am just very frustrated that there is not more discussion about how to help these people out.  I agree with you that gas prices have to go up and I also favor a gradual gas tax -- and still do in principle, though we missed the window to impose it in  -- mostly based on arguments you and others have presented here.

However, now that prices are going way up -- the shit is hitting the fan and exposing for all to see how fucked up the U.S. system is, as Colman says -- there needs to be more focus on how to help those who are the most acutely affected and least empowered to do anything about it.

I would like to hear more discussion about just how "Lower payroll taxes, a check per person, you name it" would work in practice.  That is why I linked to that essay about the Metcalf carbon-payroll tax swap idea.  Or about other approaches.

If I missed the discussions, I am sorry.  Please point me to it/them.

... all progress depends on the unreasonable mensch.
(apologies to G.B. Shaw)

by marco on Mon Jun 9th, 2008 at 05:20:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: That's the third time you're posting this (4.00 / 3)
If a lifestyle is unsustainable, then the number of people leading it must drop and people need to find a different lifestyle.

The question is whether you just let the people who drop out fend by themselves or help them shift to the different lifestyle.

In other words, if you can estimate the amount of money that fuel subsidies would cost, how about spending the same amount of money helping people get different jobs, move, or providing public transport? Subsidies spent to let people continue as before are the worst possible policy because they simply encourage people to do nothing about the root causes of the problem, which then gets worse requiring even more subsidies.

Drew has linked to maps showing the range of fuel expenditure by county is from under 3% to over 13%. If the price of fuel doubles, 13% becomes 26%. The economic organization of those counties where fuel costs are already over 13% of income must change. Subsidizing people now only brings bigger pain later.

If this were a temporary spike there would be a case for subsidies, but that is not the case.

If you want a soundbite, the 1973 oil shock was a direct result of Peak Oil in the contiguous US states. For the last 35 years the US has been importing oil from the Middle East. This now is a consequence of Peak Oil worldwide. Where else are you going to import oil from for the next 35 years? Mars?

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 9th, 2008 at 05:39:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: That's the third time you're posting this (none / 1)
Where else are you going to import oil from for the next 35 years? Mars?

Not Mars, Titan...

"Dieu se rit des hommes qui se plaignent des conséquences alors qu'ils en chérissent les causes" Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet
by Melanchthon on Mon Jun 9th, 2008 at 06:44:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: That's the third time you're posting this (none / 1)
Oh, right, we're saved!

Does anyone know at what price the Titan hydrocarbon resource becomes an economically recoverable reserve? And what's the ERoEI of importing oil from Titan?

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 9th, 2008 at 06:47:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: That's the third time you're posting this (none / 1)
3/4  of all asteroids visible from earth have a hydrocarbon content, and they don't have to be lifted out of Titans gravity well, wether its a usable ammount is another question.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Jun 9th, 2008 at 07:00:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: That's the third time you're posting this (none / 0)
At best they're going to be tar-sands grade.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 9th, 2008 at 07:01:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: That's the third time you're posting this (none / 0)
shifting a refinery out there that works in vacuum, in those temperatures would be a major feat.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Jun 9th, 2008 at 07:05:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: That's the third time you're posting this (4.00 / 2)
Well, as there are methane lakes on Titan, you just have to pull a big hose from there to Earth, et voilà!...

"Dieu se rit des hommes qui se plaignent des conséquences alors qu'ils en chérissent les causes" Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet
by Melanchthon on Mon Jun 9th, 2008 at 07:15:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: That's the third time you're posting this (none / 1)
Atmosphere entry for bulky loads of methane is going to be an interesting concept... Should make for very nice fireworks !

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Mon Jun 9th, 2008 at 08:35:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: That's the third time you're posting this (4.00 / 2)
Back when I was studying celestial mechanics, one of the problems was the energy released when a body is dropped from outer space to Earth.  

The order of energy dissipated from the change in gravitational potential is greater than the chemical energy contained in anything you might drop . . .

The Fates are kind.

by Gaianne on Mon Jun 9th, 2008 at 09:53:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: That's the third time you're posting this (none / 0)
The economic organization of those counties where fuel costs are already over 13% of income must change. Subsidizing people now only brings bigger pain later.

If this were a temporary spike there would be a case for subsidies, but that is not the case.

Hmm, I should have said subsidizing fuel not subsidizing people.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 10th, 2008 at 02:57:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: That's the third time you're posting this (4.00 / 3)
If this were a temporary spike there would be a case for subsidies, but that is not the case.

I disagree: there's a definite case for temporary, time limited, reducing subsidies to cushion the blow for people in the case of a permanent, sudden rise in prices. We all share responsibility for this fuck-up as a society, so why should people who are living as they were told was appropriate have to suffer unaided?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jun 10th, 2008 at 03:02:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: That's the third time you're posting this (none / 1)
Okay, temporary subsidies I can live with. But that's like an ultimatum: we'll give you one years' worth of gas coupons - you have a year to move your family within reach of public transport.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 10th, 2008 at 04:11:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: That's the third time you're posting this (4.00 / 3)
Well, I'd probably go with a five year plan, but pretty much: rapidly reducing support for the current life style with increasing support for the alternative, like creating a public transport infrastructure.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jun 10th, 2008 at 04:14:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: That's the third time you're posting this (none / 0)
I didn't say unaided:
if you can estimate the amount of money that fuel subsidies would cost, how about spending the same amount of money helping people get different jobs, move, or providing public transport?


When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 10th, 2008 at 04:13:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: That's the third time you're posting this (none / 1)
"However, now that prices are going way up -- the shit is hitting the fan and exposing for all to see how fucked up the U.S. system is..."

Perhaps this is good! Perhaps the average American voter will start to see how badly he's getting screwed by the current political system and start to vote for a more leftist policy...

by asdf on Mon Jun 9th, 2008 at 08:20:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: That's the third time you're posting this (none / 0)
Maybe we need a diary to have a discussion.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 10th, 2008 at 02:27:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: That's the third time you're posting this (none / 1)
Thanks for the comments and discussion above.  I went to DailyKos yesterday to find a diary that addresses this issue -- after all, it is most acutely an American problem -- but due to of lack of time and the unbelievable number of diaries to go through there, I was not able to find one that really tackles it.

If I can make some time to do the homework, I'll see if I can come up with a basic diary maybe this weekend.

... all progress depends on the unreasonable mensch.
(apologies to G.B. Shaw)

by marco on Tue Jun 10th, 2008 at 07:40:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: That's the third time you're posting this (4.00 / 2)
I'm afraid that any solution we here would be likely to suggest would be shot down as Socialistic on DKos.

But one important question is, how many people are we talking about here? The NYT had a map showing Wilcox County, Alabama as the one worst hit by the high gas prices (in terms of fraction of income spent on fuel). That's 13 thousand people in 2500 square kilometres, and the county site is 2250 people.

It seems to be really spread out, but then again it's just 13 thousand people. Even buying them buses wouldn't be that expensive, but probably neither the county nor the state can afford it and the Federal government would have to do it. Aftal all, they can give $30 billion to JP Morgan...

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 10th, 2008 at 07:57:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: That's the third time you're posting this (4.00 / 2)
It is not most acutely an american problem: European Fishermen have rioted in Brussels over fuel prices, and long-haul transport truck drivers have staged blockades in the UK, France and Spain (and motorcyclists have also had a protest in the UK). So it is starting to bite here, too.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 10th, 2008 at 08:02:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: That's the third time you're posting this (4.00 / 4)
Mind you, most of those problems are related to the disproportionate power of supermarkets who have squeezed the margins of hauliers and fishermen down to nothing.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jun 10th, 2008 at 08:05:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: That's the third time you're posting this (4.00 / 4)
Whilst I agree there is a problem, which as you note, is principally affecting the US, we are seeing the same effects here. Truck drivers across europe are insisting that they should recieve subsidized fuel, depsite the facts that a large number of their journeys are predicated on a cheap fuel model that simply cannot be sustained.

And that's the problem. We have a transport pattern that cannot be sustained, however hard we try. In fact, the very effort to sustain that pattern makes the situation worse. We here are aware that the warning signs have been obvious for years and that work to avoid this could have been undertaken if we'd had governments that think forwardly instead of react backwardly. But no government does this, it's not the western way. Indeed, JaP suggesting gas taxes to encourage new patterns on dKos gets a reaction of outraged disbelief and lectures on the sanctity of the "American way".

Subsidies won't really help, however attractive. If you halve the price of gas, it will encourage the perpetuation of current patterns, not the creation of new ones. Breeding horses might. Building railways will, but that's an effort that's 10 years away.

So for 40 years the US (and UK) have been electing governments that have been increasingly indifferent to the majority population. The contempt the current US administration has for 95% of the electorate is incredible and I guess that it happened so gradually everybody thinks that it's the normal way to be. So the idea that there is a group of people in the Beltway that cares a damn about the poor or even working class strikes me as utterly delusional. You have an eleitst plutocratic govt bordering on authoritarian fuedalism. Nothing we suggest will change that, and nothing can help the American people until that is changed.

Over to you

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Jun 10th, 2008 at 08:13:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

European Salon de News, Discussion et Klatsch - 10 June | 146 comments (146 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)
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