Monday Open Thread | 129 comments (128 topical, 1 editorial, 0 hidden)

Re: Monday Open Thread (4.00 / 2)

Just tell her she'll be paying "European prices" for gas regardless.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 9th, 2008 at 11:05:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Yep (none / 1)

Realistically, that's the only sane answer.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Mon Jun 9th, 2008 at 11:08:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yep (4.00 / 2)

You can then get into the specifics, such as 38 billion barrels is only 5 years' worth of current consumption.

For the trillion barrels of shale oil you'd have to talk about ERoEI, but maybe you can avoid getting technical and just point out that extracting oil out of shale is so hard Total was planning on building dedicated nuclear reactors to power its Canadian tar sands operations.

And so on.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 9th, 2008 at 11:12:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: shale oil (4.00 / 2)

Hi all, I wasn't gone, just hadn't logged in in while. Thanks for the comments,

One question about shale oil, - doesn't it require more energy to remove and process it than it supplies?

thanks again

by Spatz (sonya.faberATizi.fraunhofer.de) on Mon Jun 9th, 2008 at 12:01:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: shale oil (4.00 / 2)

That's what ERoEI stands for: Energy Return on Energy Investment.

The Oil Drum has a recent (April 15, 2008) post - probably one of many - on Tar Sands ERoEI, with the following table:

A previous post about the ERoEI of conventional oil and gas includes this table:

Note: between 1930 and 2005 Oil and Gas ERoEI has deteriorated from 100:1 to (at best) 18:1.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 9th, 2008 at 02:02:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yep (4.00 / 4)

EROEI is a tough concept to grasp for some, but the difference between oil shooting out of wells during the early 20th century and scrubbing oil off of rocks should be explainable to most.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Mon Jun 9th, 2008 at 04:08:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yep (4.00 / 3)

Even at $4/gallon, there's a fair bit of change in behavior occurring. The problem is that a combination of low incomes and dependence on larger vehicles for work is crushing people in a few regions (the upper Plains, the Mississippi Delta, etc), while in other regions, whether because of higher incomes or better access to more efficient transit, it's not really much of an issue. The NYT's running a story on it today, with pretty maps and everything.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Mon Jun 9th, 2008 at 11:30:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yep (4.00 / 3)

Apparently Newt is now a 'green conservative.'

He really is a revolting toad of a man, isn't he?

Anyway - it's interesting to read the comments. Good ole patriotic Americans are convinced that Congress is getting between them and their gas, and that all they have to do is drill! drill! drill! and everything can go back to normal.

It's depressing - really, truly, deeply, depressing - how few people seem to be able to do the conceptual equivalent of basic arithmetic when it comes to issues like these.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Mon Jun 9th, 2008 at 01:41:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yep (4.00 / 2)

Depressing, yes, but that won't hold for the majority. The majority seems to get that something permanent is taking place, and the television press is actually doing a respectable job saying just that as they cover rising prices and side items like the GM story. People seem to be finally getting the message.

Conservatives, as you know, thrive is environments where the electorate is ignorant and lazy. But people don't seem to be ignorant and lazy right now, for whatever reason, the way they were prior to about 2005. I'm not saying it'll continue, of course, since one should never underestimate America's capacity for rationalization. But, for now, it looks like the message is getting across.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Mon Jun 9th, 2008 at 01:51:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yep (none / 1)

Drew J Jones:

Conservatives, as you know, thrive is environments where the electorate is ignorant and lazy. But people don't seem to be ignorant and lazy right now, for whatever reason, the way they were prior to about 2005.

New Orleans was a big learning experience which will take a long time to forget. Of course the lesson of that course is that Republicans don't give a shit about people.

Hey, Grandma Moses started late!

by LEP on Mon Jun 9th, 2008 at 03:17:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yep (none / 1)

You mean basic arithmetic as in the US consumes 20 million barrels of oil per day which is 7 billion barrels per year which means 38 billion barrels of reserves is not that much (and should be saved for a rainy day - or for more useful things than burning it).

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 9th, 2008 at 02:04:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yep (4.00 / 6)

I mean basic arithmetic in the sense of - let's try this as a multiple choice -

There is almost no oil left. Should you:

Deal with this realistically by cutting down on consumption and making plans to cut down even more?
Give money to Newt, blame the Democrats and whine a lot?
Repeat that the US is the greatest country in the world and that it should use its God-given oil reserves, even though you have no idea how big they are?
Apply to be Newt's secretary?

Thinking about it, there could be some mileage [1] in a pop quiz viral along these lines.

_{[1] Not literally, obviously, now that it's too late for that.}

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Mon Jun 9th, 2008 at 02:21:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yep (none / 1)

And Newt's a "green conservative" like I'm a fucking astronaut.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Mon Jun 9th, 2008 at 02:12:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yep (none / 1)

The NYT requires free registration but not so the IHT (who the fuck does the NYT think they're fooling with this?), so let's go with the IHT version:

High gas prices weigh heaviest on rural U.S. (June 9, 2008)

Gasoline prices reached a national average of $4 a gallon for the first time over the weekend, adding more strain to motorists across the country.
But the pain is not being felt uniformly. Across broad swaths of the South, Southwest and the upper Great Plains, the combination of low incomes, high gas prices and heavy dependence on pickup trucks and vans is putting an even tighter squeeze on family budgets.
Here in the Mississippi Delta, some farm workers are borrowing money from their bosses so they can fill their tanks and get to work. Some are switching jobs for shorter commutes.

No maps, though.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 9th, 2008 at 02:09:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yep (none / 1)

Map here. So ha.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Mon Jun 9th, 2008 at 02:10:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yep (none / 0)

They need to make cartograms for those.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 9th, 2008 at 02:13:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yep (none / 1)

Looks a lot like a map of the distribution of people of Scots-Irish descent. An opportunity?

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Mon Jun 9th, 2008 at 05:29:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yep (4.00 / 2)

Just what we needed: turn the price of gas into identity politics.

Not "we need to get out of oil dependency together" but "those effette latte liberals from big cities are screwing us".

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 9th, 2008 at 05:53:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yep (4.00 / 2)

That should not be the intent, Mig. But too many of these folks have for too long unthinkingly supported the Republicans. As LBJ said, after signing the Civil Rights legislation: "We may have lost the south for a generation." Two generations have passed. Attitudes have changed. It is high time to get some of these folks back. An appeal to their self interest and their sense of fairness, which has been perverted by the "Southern Strategy," might be effective now.

If 20-30% of them could be peeled off it could change the dynamics of many contests. In the end, their identity baggage would be no worse than that of any of the other ethnic groups that traditionally support Democrats. Not all populist appeals need be evil. IMHO it is worth a try. The bigger the tent, the less influence any individual constituent has.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Mon Jun 9th, 2008 at 10:20:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yep (4.00 / 2)

So what policy proposal do you want to try to sway these folks? A large number of us here are against fuel subsidies.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 10th, 2008 at 02:26:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yep (4.00 / 2)

I propose precisely the policies that ET has proposed. Don't jump to false conclusions. We need wind power where ever it is cost effective. We need to give up on the idea that we can drill our way out of this problem, despite the fact that so many of these people have populated the oil patch. Their children need better access to education, along with blacks, Native Americans and Hispanics. We need massive investment in re-making our infrastructure to a low carbon model.

The American population, along with the Scots-Irish, need to be brought to the understanding that continual, blind support of Big Oil's agenda will only drag the entire nation down a giant dry hole. They need to see that continuing to bail out Wall Street will do the same. It could well be that no amount of money will save them from their folly. It is a classic case of throwing good money after bad and the cure being worse than the disease. Let those who created the mess pay instead of transferring the cost to the victims.

Get out of Iraq. It may well be that the only way stability can return to Iraq before the USA goes broke is via an Iraqi strongman who will do things that we can't do, despite Bush's best effort at playing fascist thug. I don't favor sudden and complete withdrawal, but we must abandon the idea of permanent bases and quickly withdraw most, if not all of the troops. Should Europe be able to broker an agreement with Turkey that would enable a de facto partition, that might be the best resolution. And we must take proper care of wounded and damaged veterans numbering well over 200,000, if you include TBI and PTSD.

Taken together, such policies may well attract more than 30% of the "Scots-Irish vote." And it is not just simple minded demographics. Most people in the South are of a variety of backgrounds. I count English, Welch, Scots-Irish, an Ulster woman great grandmother, Cherokee, and probably Dutch. Others include French, and German. But the cultural atmosphere has been strongly influenced by the Scots-Irish. It might be better termed "The Redneck Nation," as Cockneys and Nories who were transported en lieu of execution readily acquired red necks doing field work in the south, while many others, such as myself, take a tan just fine, due to American Indian heritage.

Thanks for responding. I was beginning to wonder if some, not necessarily yourself, would rather see Obama win without redneck support than with it. While I agree that the most important thing is that he win, I think it would be very short sighted to write off this group. The larger the majority, the greater independence a party has from the demands of any one group.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Tue Jun 10th, 2008 at 09:37:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yep (none / 0)

Well, maybe you can help me out here.

I propose precisely the policies that ET has proposed. Don't jump to false conclusions. We need wind power where ever it is cost effective. We need to give up on the idea that we can drill our way out of this problem, despite the fact that so many of these people have populated the oil patch. Their children need better access to education, along with blacks, Native Americans and Hispanics. We need massive investment in re-making our infrastructure to a low carbon model.

Drew has linked to maps by the NYT on the impact of oil prices by county. The county that spends the highest fraction of its income on gas is Wilcox County, Alabama. Wikipedia has the census data on Wilcox County: 13 thousand people on 2500 square kilometres. The County seat is a town of 2250 and maybe one other town in the county has more than 500 people. Google maps satellite pictures show a mosaic of shades of green and ochre indicating it's divided up into farms. I'm guessing maybe up to 1/2 of the population of the county lives in the towns and he rest live on farms, with houses a kilometre away from each other in some areas?

The population of the county has a strong gender bias (100:80 female-to-male ratio above age 18: 20% of the men have left to work elesewhere) and a large african-american population (70%). 12% of households are elderly people living alone.

Do most people commute to nearby (77 miles) Montgomery to work? What do people grow on those farms? Do they own the farms? Can the county be food-selfsufficient? How would you reorganize the economy of the county to be less dependent on oil? Can the farmers grow their own biodiesel for their farm machines and rely on a (new) network of buses for transportation? And so on.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 10th, 2008 at 10:26:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yep (4.00 / 2)

I have seen articles in the Arkansas Democrat Gazette on this subject. At present it makes more sense for some to drop out of the work force than to commute. I have never set foot in Mississippi or Alabama, and I don't know about landholding patterns. My guess is that most are living in rural rentals and that the house is in bad shape and the rent set at what they can just afford on SS. A lot of these families rely on Granny's SS to pay the rent & utilities for an extended family. They probably have a garden and put up preserves for the winter. They probably keep chickens.

What to do for them? These folks would be obvious recipients for aid derived from energy taxes, as proposed by Jerome, or for more indirect taxes such as windfall taxes on energy companies. Several things would help: low cost financing to enable purchase of motor scooters, bicycles and adult tricycles for rural families, (this is the same density as during the 19th and the first half of the 20th centuries when the transportation was by mule), money for road maintenance and improvement, (a lot of dirt and gravel roads in these areas, as in Arkansas), some kind of financial subsidy for recreating commons on which rural folk could run a couple of head of livestock, a system of worker's hostels in areas where work is available and attention by law enforcement to see that they are not routinely shaken down by thugs, especially in centers of work, would be desirable.

A plug-in hybrid or two used as rural taxies and paid for out of County Social Services budgets and employing locals as drivers at minimum wage would help, especially for medical appointments. A lot of this type of poverty is straight out of Michael Harrington's The Other America, 1963.

I doubt that Wilcox County, Alabama is a significant retirement destination, as is northern Arkansas. Most of the able bodied who are willing to work have moved away, although they may return when down on their luck.

Jesus reputedly said "the poor you shall always have with you." Between the Catholic Church's position on contraception and Neo-Classical Economics we seem to be insuring that we don't make that a false statement. And that was during a time when solutions seemed more readily available. No good answers for many of "the least of these."

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Tue Jun 10th, 2008 at 01:58:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yep (4.00 / 2)

No, the Delta is largely working-class black. Slave and sharecropper descendants. Many are still sharecroppers. Border towns in the Southwest don't look well either. Similar story in both cases: They're dirt-poor.

The Scots-Irish are mainly in Appalachia and the midlands in the South. Seems to be a mixed bag there. Big cities look okay. Rural areas are in trouble.

The lower South, which I believe is more English than Scots-Irish, seems to be the part getting hit.

Really, it's just the inland rural areas that don't really have much going on economically. Bad jobs, low incomes, car-dependent.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Mon Jun 9th, 2008 at 05:56:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yep (4.00 / 5)

West Virginia, Kentucky, Tennessee, Virginia, North Carolina, Arkansas, Oklahoma, much of Texas, New Mexico and Colorado have significant Scots-Irish populations. The Dems go after every other ethnic group. Combine some Scots-Irish with black, with Hispanic, with Native American and it could tip an election.

I was born in Texas, grew up in Oklahoma, lived in Arizona and California and retired to Arkansas. My ancestors came through Virginia, Kentucky, Tennessee, Indiana, Missouri, Arkansas, Kansas, Indian Territory,(AKA Oklahoma), and Texas. I know my own. Many are ripe for the taking.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Mon Jun 9th, 2008 at 10:31:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yep (4.00 / 3)

And, yeah, my grandfather was a sharecropper and rural teamster. Born 1850 around Nashville, died 1933 in Northern Oklahoma. My father was born in 1910 in Northern Oklahoma. Both sets of grandparents were in the Territories before they were officially opened for settlement. Proper Sooners: "there sooner than they outer been." I am of Cherokee descent on my father's mother's side. None of this is unusual in this area.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Mon Jun 9th, 2008 at 10:38:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yep (4.00 / 2)

There was a diary on Daily Kos rec. list the other day from someone who lives in, I believe, S.W. Virginia. He said a lot of the locals there were talking about voting for Obama; they were disgusted with Bush.
I think the diary was called "I voted for Bush twice; Obama will be the next president."

Hey, Grandma Moses started late!

by LEP on Tue Jun 10th, 2008 at 02:49:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yep (4.00 / 2)

That's a poverty map. Especially rural poverty.

by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Mon Jun 9th, 2008 at 07:04:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yep (4.00 / 2)

The poverty map is this one.

The median income by county has a range from $17k to $98k? Now that is fucked up.

Then again, the EU is equally fucked up: the distribution of GDP/head by region ranges from <15% of EU average to >125% which is a range of at least x8. But we don't pretend to be a single country.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 9th, 2008 at 07:11:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yep (4.00 / 3)

Then again, the EU is equally fucked up: the distribution of GDP/head by region ranges from <15% of EU average to >125% which is a range of at least x8. But we don't pretend to be a single country.

Sure, but the new member states are catching up rather quickly! I was in Poland last week and I saw the change from two years ago. And the numbers confirm:

Poland: Inflation and wage growth ease a bit

The Polish Statistical Office has published consumer price inflation (CPI) and wage growth numbers for inflation for March. Polish inflation eased to 4.1% y/y in March from 4.2% y/y. This was a bit lower than the consensus expectation and our expectation of 4.2% y/y. Wage growth eased to 10.2% y/y from 12.8%y/y below our expectation of 10.8% y/y and the consensus expectation of 11.1%. Similarly, employment growth surprised a bit on the low side, growing 5.8% y/y – a bit below our expectation and the consensus expectation of 5.9% y/y.

"Dieu se rit des hommes qui se plaignent des conséquences alors qu'ils en chérissent les causes" Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet

by Melanchthon on Mon Jun 9th, 2008 at 07:49:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yep (4.00 / 2)

Thankfully there is no county-sized district across all of Europe - regions are much larger - or the spread would be much larger.

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères

by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Mon Jun 9th, 2008 at 08:40:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yep (4.00 / 3)

Uh, yes, I can click on tabs. But look at the similarities in the patterns between the poverty map and the gas-price-impact map.

by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Tue Jun 10th, 2008 at 01:02:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yep (4.00 / 2)

Because the range of median incomes is 6x but the range of fuel prices is only 30% so that the range of gas expenditure is necessarily strongly correlated with median income.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 10th, 2008 at 02:38:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Let them ride bicycles/motorcycles/carpool (4.00 / 5)

I posted that article in the last Salon, but it did not get any response at all. I get the feeling that only thing we have to say to people with low incomes who rely on vehicles for work (either for operation or commute) is the fuel equivalent of "Let them cake", "Life's a bitch" and "Suck it up." Not really helpful, and hardly compassionate.

Now Obama says:

I'll make oil companies like Exxon pay a tax on their windfall profits, and we'll use the money to help families pay for their skyrocketing energy costs and other bills.

He will be accused of pandering to American on the bottom of the economic ladder. But the truth is, there are many who are truly hurting under the energy prices. And except for the a payroll-carbon tax swap which I mentioned in that previous comment, I have yet to hear of any other constructive progressive response to this pressing issue.

... all progress depends on the unreasonable mensch.
(apologies to G.B. Shaw)

by marco on Mon Jun 9th, 2008 at 03:06:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Let them ride bicycles/motorcycles/carpool (none / 1)

Agreed. Unfortunately, it turns into a massive hit on areas that had largely escaped the housing bubble, too.

Now Obama says

He's been saying that for months. Part of the revenue goes into green energy infrastructure, part pays for his lower-end tax cut on income. (Let's call it what it is, though: a back-door gas tax hike. It's the right strategy, but he needs to balance it with ways of helping working people.) Remember the fight over the gas-tax holiday? I don't think the press is going to hit him for pandering, because the press backed him up against Hillary and McCain on the tax cut, and he seems to have actually won some respect among the reporters for it. In fact, the press seems to be covering Obama ripping into McCain on the economy. He's done a great job of seizing the narrative as the general election gets revved up.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Mon Jun 9th, 2008 at 03:49:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

That's hardly fair (4.00 / 5)

a windfall tax will be paid by the consumers, in the end. It's a discreet way to push a gas tax, which is why I don't fight it too much, but it's hardly a progressive tax;
I'm always saying that we should tax oil consumption and use the money to directly compensate the poorest - in ways not linked to their gas consumption. Lower payroll taxes, a check per person, you name it. Just make them have a big incentive to use less gas, while not being too penalised in the transition.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Mon Jun 9th, 2008 at 04:44:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That's hardly fair (4.00 / 4)

I'm always saying that we should tax oil consumption and use the money to directly compensate the poorest - in ways not linked to their gas consumption.

Commie! Why do you hate freedom? Obama shill!

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Jun 9th, 2008 at 04:47:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That's hardly fair (4.00 / 2)

You say that like it's a bad thing.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Mon Jun 9th, 2008 at 07:25:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Monday Open Thread (4.00 / 4)

And ask if Newt's still drilling his secretary.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Mon Jun 9th, 2008 at 11:22:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 1)

This is not the new left wing narrative you are looking for.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Mon Jun 9th, 2008 at 04:08:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0)

I thought liberals were reality-based.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 9th, 2008 at 04:21:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Monday Open Thread (4.00 / 4)

Not necessarily: the platonic ideal of telling lies to control the masses lives on across the political spectrum. Long live our new Liberal Philosopher King masters!

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Jun 9th, 2008 at 04:45:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 1)

reality based involves explanations, not elitist dismissals.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Mon Jun 9th, 2008 at 05:03:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0)

Refer to my other comment.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 9th, 2008 at 05:19:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 1)

Indeed, but don't open with "you're screwed."

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Mon Jun 9th, 2008 at 05:46:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 1)

I never said there's nothing they can do. I did say there's nothing they can do to bring oil prices down.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 9th, 2008 at 05:50:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Monday Open Thread | 129 comments (128 topical, 1 editorial, 0 hidden)

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