Myths in America about Europe | 99 comments (99 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

Re: Myths in America about Europe (4.00 / 3)

I'd like to offer up my own American myth about Europe, but also state that some myths are true. At least, originally, the term myth referred to things true since the ancients didn't recognize our fancy contradistinctions between so-called myth, so-called dream, and so-called reality:

Europeans are much less interested in tying the sources of power in Europe to supra-governmental interests, such as global and multinational corporations, oil majors, etc.

When European nations oppose the USA, the answers as to why are usually found in corporate battles (France lost a few Iraqi contracts, no?) and when they agree on a place like, say, Kosovo, the mutual sharing of contracts create a similarity in policy. The media too is "owned" as in the USA, and sure they are very willing to open up the books on the USA when it comes to Iraq, but that's easy. What of European adventures? I followed the Balkan Wars very closely and was dismayed at the one sidedness of German, French and British (to be expected) accounts of the wars. It mirrored American disinformation pretty closely. The same is true of other media accounts of events on the continent. When it doesn't favor the European powers, the media never crosses their line.

All of which is to say that I believe in general Europeans are much less circumspect about the levers over governmental power than Americans are. The reasons are obvious: the US system is bought and paid for by special interests that pervert the function of gov't. Any man on the street will tell you, "Oh, they're voting that way because they are owned by the credit card companies." Most voters are profoundly aware of why/how their politicians vote on certain issues. In Europe, with no ties between political funding and politicians, this relation is not as obvious. Though I maintain it exists.

Only in the UK is this relation made open and explicit. A UK pol or administration is much more open to saying "We are backing the US in Iraq because otherwise our control of resources in the region would cramp our economy and bleed our corporations." (ie. Brits make the connection between war, blood, oil and corporate profits readily).

Maybe the UK is a more proper model for Europe proper?

by Upstate NY on Thu Sep 11th, 2008 at 09:51:59 AM EST

Re: Myths in America about Europe (none / 1)

Two things.

Frist MArtin uses a mythology in the colloquial way.. he has been clearly not influenced by me regarding mythology as a structural narrative which by definition is true :) A real myhtology is true by definition because it can not be wrong (within the parameters of the culture), actually it is impossible to think in term of true or false regardins an structural narrative mythology.

Greeks had the structural narrative that Gods interacted with humans frequently, they did not live in two realms of existence completely separated, this was a fundamental part of the structural narrative of the greeks, and that's why it was amtyhology.

In Western europe cities (and I guess most of US big cities) we have our mythologies, or structural narratives, for example the existence of the self is not discuted or think in terms of tru or false, t is obious, we grew thinking in this terms of true or false .. tehre is no doubt that the self exist.. in the same way , my grandma family 70 years ago had never listened about the self, and the idea that one existed and had to grow an improve and all that stuff was not present... and the bororos, well for the bororos there is no self not becuase they do not think about it but because they actively think that the brain is open to everyone, it is their mytholgy as true as it can be,and as real as our self... only that for them, our "self" is kind of crazy.

So , martin is actually referring to narratives which are not structural...and uses myths in the colloquial term as a "false narrative"... Maybe next time he uses the new language.

And regarding money I can talk abut Spain because here we really do know. First thing, compared with the US, money has no influence. Here money has no direct influence,it is indirect, it is via the networking that money provides that bankers and rich can get what they want.

typically, the biggest networking is in the hands of banks. They may have less money compared with other industries, there are people who are more rich and indsutries more relevant that the biggers bankers... but they are the real ones, the ones that really influence and talk with any government and any minister. Economic policy is a mutual understanding, financially pro-banks and then focused on union-managers arrengements for the rest of the economy...

This is why it is very easy to implement new regualtions and policies in almost any sector but economic policy is basically the same no matter who rules.

Migeru can give you more information about that.

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Thu Sep 11th, 2008 at 11:40:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Myths in America about Europe (none / 0)

I can?

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Sep 11th, 2008 at 11:42:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Myths in America about Europe (none / 0)

Spanish networking.. sure..... Botin and co..

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Thu Sep 11th, 2008 at 12:33:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Myths in America about Europe (none / 0)

But I am not specially placed to comment on that. I've been out of the country for 8 years while you are still within earshot of the rumour mill...

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Sep 11th, 2008 at 12:50:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Myths in America about Europe (4.00 / 4)

Ah, my myth tangent was just a rant left over from last night after reading some of Nietzsche's Gay Science.

Again, I'll overgeneralize here about Europeans. Even where there is awareness of powerful interests in gov't, the fact that you have more transparency because money is not passed to politicos directly, creates a tendency to respond to the policies of gov't without a full contextual awareness of corporate interests.

This is just my sense in discussing politics with Europeans. The American response is typically to suss out a politician's hidden motives, whereas Europeans are much more ready to consider politics at the conceptual level. Politics in the USA is so debased because a conceptual discussion of policies is already subverted by the election process which preceded it.

In Europe, the tendency is reversed, so that Americans find difficulty in explaining political policy to Europeans since we tend to harp on the power arrangements rather than discuss policy. Or, for voters who have no interest in power arrangements, they'd rather discuss say lipstick or religion or abortion or being a war hero. For many of these voters, they engage in power relations at the level of worker's rights (i.e. they do consider union membership, minimum wages, etc.)

For others who also ignore policy statements and governing concepts, they may dig deeper and put a keen eye on, say, GE owning NBC, or Disney owning ABC, or Sumner Redstone--a lifelong Democrat--supporting Bush now because he's great for Viacom. We'll notice that SONY and Bertelsmann have had an enormous impact on American culture by pushing laws that streamline book publishing and, unfortunately, destroy literature.

The direct money tie places a different emphasis on politics.

by Upstate NY on Thu Sep 11th, 2008 at 11:54:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Myths in America about Europe (none / 0)

because [in Europe] money is not passed to politicos directly

It isn't?

by MarekNYC on Thu Sep 11th, 2008 at 11:56:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Myths in America about Europe (none / 0)

Oh?

Hah, I thought the EU members rated well on bribery and such.

by Upstate NY on Thu Sep 11th, 2008 at 12:00:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Myths in America about Europe (4.00 / 2)

Well - rated well, but not perfect :-)

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Thu Sep 11th, 2008 at 12:01:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Myths in America about Europe (none / 1)

Italy?, France?, Suitcases full of cash from shady arms dealers passed on in dark empty parking lots.

And I'm not even going to start on the ex communist states.

by MarekNYC on Thu Sep 11th, 2008 at 12:04:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Myths in America about Europe (none / 0)

Just watch out for the frontpsage tomorrow.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Thu Sep 11th, 2008 at 12:54:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Myths in America about Europe (none / 0)

I think what Martin is talking about is the presence of PACs and similar 'soft money' channels in the US political context. This creates an explicit and quasi-legitimate link between various corporate interest groups and the pols they have ~~paid for~~shared their concerns with and this drives any discussion of policy matters to be framed in terms of lobbyist-mandated power relations and factions as a matter of course.

On the Euro side there may well be plenty of money arriving with the pols via anonymous suitcases and/or plain brown envelopes, but because this is plainly and clearly illegitimate it allows us to maintain the conceit that policy considerations are not structured by the priorities of corporate benefectors (even if the actuality is rather different).

So it's not that our pols aren't whoring themselves to the corps, it's that the default assumption of their being bought and paid for doesn't structure our political discourse the way it does Stateside.

Regards
Luke

-- #include witty_sig.h

by silburnl on Fri Sep 12th, 2008 at 12:20:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Myths in America about Europe (4.00 / 2)

No, it is not,a t least Spain. No money can reach ever the president or a minister. It is just forbidden.

Money suitcases are more lower orders, majors, adn in some cases head of finantial apparatus in political parties....for the networking...

As I said, the important thing is networking, who knows who.. and what you are going to do after you quit government.

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Thu Sep 11th, 2008 at 12:36:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Myths in America about Europe | 99 comments (99 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

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