Myths in America about Europe | 99 comments (99 topical, editorial, 0 hidden)

Re: A precision (none / 0)

The center is a moving target :-) And I think the right of the SPD, just like the left of the CDU/CSU as it befits a Volkspartei [how do you say that in English?], are beyond the overall centre.
I think major party is used for Volkspartei. It is true of course, that the parties are overlapping. And people like Bluem/Geissler or Clement/Schroeder could be in the other party if only economic policies would count (Bluem/Geissler could even be in the left party then).

You yourself contended that Merkel's current leftist economic policies (and perhaps foreign policy, too) run opposite to her and the CDU's 2005 campaign platform. (I could say her lust for power was so strong that she broke all her election promises to get into government in a Grand Coalition ;-) ) The media love for her dates from before the elections, and in fact, I even read some 'reformist' criticisms of her.
She has broken most of her election promises, except the VAT increase, which was probably among the most important ones. But it is very clear, that the 2005 campaign platform was far away from the center of people's opinion. And of course there are people critisising Merkel for breaking her promises, e.g. Friedrich Merz and co.

RTL, Sat1 and Pro7
Thought we speak about serious journalism. Last time I viewed news on one of these channels, I couldn't detect that. I don't think these channels make people more conservative. I think these channels make people more unpolitical at all, which as it is 'Unterschichtenfernsehen' admittedly helps the right.

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Thu Sep 11th, 2008 at 09:55:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A precision (none / 1)

I think major party is used for Volkspartei.

Does that bear the connotation (pretty strong in German) of being a consolidator of diverse streams from all parts of the population? (Where the suggestion is that minor parties represent specific minority layers of society.)

Thought we speak about serious journalism.

You didn't specify your poll of journalists was among "serious" journalists, so I didn't know we are speaking only about serious journalism :-) At the level of influencing people, the daily news half-hour of either channel compares to tagesschau and heute. But anyway, I could have named n-tv, too.

I think people can be made more unpolitical and conservative at the same time. At least on the economy, preaching consumerist individualism is a 'conservative' propaganda already. When things are dumbed down, and analysis is left away, what remains is often highly saturated spin. That's exactly what Berlusconi's channels are doing. (BTW, have you ever suffered channel-surfing in an Italian hotel? Worst the B effect produced the TV landscape in Europe, no contest.) IMHO RTL & co do the same, but much less overtly, much more subversively.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Thu Sep 11th, 2008 at 10:14:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A precision (none / 0)

Minor side comment on RTL & co, given the anniversary. Back then I watched TV practically for 24 hours, flipping between several news channels I then had on satellite. Strangely enough, I found the coverage by RTL and Sat.1 the most informative: ARD and ZDF were then caught at unawares, Hungarian channels did little beyond relaying stuff from US channels, while CNN (and Fox and MSNBC) tried to fill every second with endless repetitions and talking heads babbling away in which real new information, not to mention understanding, was quickly lost.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Thu Sep 11th, 2008 at 10:20:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A precision (none / 0)

preaching consumerist individualism is a 'conservative' propaganda already
No, it isn't. It is 'social-liberal' propaganda. The viewership of these channels is less wealthy than the average. It is nothing said about the source of the money to buy the products. Transfers would be the easiest for the viewership.
Individualism is clearly against conservative values. The hyping of indpendency, the neglect of loyality towards the people in your immediate proximity and ridiculing of family bounds is a left wing issue.
I want to remind you about Jerome's diary 'I don't do charity, I pay taxes'. I have I wouldn't have known, that Jerome does charity, I would have thought 'What an asshole'. Along the lines of an episode, I think written by Tolstoi about charity/Barmherzigkeit and the Russian soul, communists are forbidden to do charity, because you are in either of two situations

perfect world, no charity necessary, because nobody has problems
prerevolutionary world, charity only softens the suffering, which ultimatively will bring the revolution to the perfect world. So charity prevents the perfect world from coming

Jerome in his diary says - to Americans, who live in a country with a broken gov - don't do charity, just vote for left parties and your moral duty is done. No reason to do anything for those, who suffer, just cold blooded cynism in the face of suffering. No personal responsibility for others, no honour in resign from own rights to help those who suffer more. People really following such ideas, and not just proclaiming them, while doing the opposite, have replaced their heart by a mechanic.

Familyism and local communityism are conservative, the atomisation of the society into individuums, which are only connected by the state, but not with each other, is something favoured by leftys.

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Thu Sep 11th, 2008 at 11:09:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A precision (none / 1)

Martin:

Familyism and local communityism are conservative, the atomisation of the society into individuums, which are only connected by the state, but not with each other, is something favoured by leftys.

You have some very strange ideas about the Left, certainly as it works in the Anglo world.

Wasn't it Thatcher who said 'There's no such thing about society' and proceeded to act as if that were true?

Left wing discussions are filled with ideas of community and interpersonal responsibility.

How much time have you spent talking to real progressives?

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu Sep 11th, 2008 at 11:24:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A precision (none / 1)

To make it short: the individualism promoted by leftists (and to a much lesser degree liberals) is anti-authoritarian, not anti-community.

When conservatives speak of community, in my observation, it's always in terms of hierarchy and submission. Be it family, state, nation, party, company, military. Consumerism might undermine 'family values', disturbing the 'moral conservatives', but at the same time, it also undermines the sense of solidarity and thus the support for policy proposals based on them and politicians running with those; and undermines the running and survival of authority-challenging communities like unions, parties, consumer groups and such. While Martin is speaking thinking of a political landscape where no major party politician dared to speak like Thatcher, a German conservative doesn't even have to be a Thatcherite/Reaganite/Anglo Disease worshipper to favor such an outcome.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Thu Sep 11th, 2008 at 11:39:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A precision (4.00 / 2)

Gemeinschaft vs. Gesellschaft - i.e. the longstanding German intellectual tradition of contrasting traditional style 'community' with the 'society' generated by modernity.

by MarekNYC on Thu Sep 11th, 2008 at 11:39:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A precision (none / 1)

The viewership of these channels is less wealthy than the average.

Precisely. But why on Earth do you think that makes them left-of-center oriented? Bild is aimed at lower-class, less educated people too, and I hope even you won't take its support for Schröder as reason to call the flagship of the Axel Springer Verlag left-of-center. But obviously conservatives need to communicate towards lower-class people. Since universal suffrage was introduced, it's not enough for conservatives to get the majority of the feudal, clerical and moneyed wealthy people, so they have to get those less wealthy people.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Thu Sep 11th, 2008 at 11:48:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A precision (none / 0)

The sentence stood in connection with the next one. Promoting consumerism to a non-wealthy viewership doesn't make them feel they get too much transfers.

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Thu Sep 11th, 2008 at 11:55:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A precision (none / 0)

I submit the meaning of that sentence was lost on me, and still is after the above. What do you mean with "transfer"?

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Thu Sep 11th, 2008 at 12:00:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A precision (none / 0)

Transfers - redistributional policies by the gov't e.g. direct via any kind of welfare, indirect via cross subsidies for the health care system/ retirement system overproportionally benefitting those with less than average income.

In other words, right wing parties in charge are not very likely to produce results with the RTL/Pro7/Sat1 viewers more money in the pocket - at least not in the short term - than left wing parties. So to win them, it doesn't make sense to focus them on the money in their pocket, but distract them with other issues, like telling the left parties are ammoral, or do not have the skills to run the gov't properly.

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Thu Sep 11th, 2008 at 12:09:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A precision (none / 1)

You know what, this diary was about that Europe's economy does fine, probably better than the US one.

If Europe is as much owned by big corporations and Chicago school boys as the US, then of course using it as an example that different policy is possible for Americans is completely useless. So long live Milton Friedman, long live Dick Cheney, long live fox news, they are doing the only policy which ever proofed to work.

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Thu Sep 11th, 2008 at 12:19:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Myths in America about Europe | 99 comments (99 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

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