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Adding, it's been a lot longer than 30 years for the big wave of north african immigration...now, closer to 50-60 years.

Still no big leaders.

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 05:02:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
When did the big immigration start in France?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 05:04:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In the 1950's. Really, right after the war.

It is a dirty secret that we did a bad job integrating those waves. Jerome will deeply disagree with this, I think, but really, the '80's and especially '90's were really pivotal in locking that failed integration in. We had a period of really sustained unemployment for so-called unskilled workers, first from the reaction to socialist reforms in the 1980's (unfortunately the rest of Europe wasn't ready for socialism) and then from Germany's re-unification that we all paid for via a really nasty recession.

We spent more than a generation under full employment. that's a recipe, in my view, for regression, and this is not an exception for France in the 1990's.

Adding to this,as regards what is happening in Ireland, I always thought that Ireland would somehow escape the downside of the inevitable neo-liberal hangover. After all, in Ireland you have perhaps the smartest people in all of Europe, an ability to deal favorably with the Americans, and the English language which accentuates the first two things. On top of this, Ireland chose to excel, in terms of finance, in back office automation instead of the speculative bullshit which is going to kill the uk.

I know the rest of us were supposed to watch the celtic tiger whose "reforms" we the rest of us were supposed to imitate, starting with the corporate tax cuts. But I think they made a mistake on this in Dublin, and more than a few Haugheys could have done with ten-dollar american shirts instead of hundred punt french hand-tailored ones, for which working irish, like working english, pay the price.

at least here there's a (more or less) progressive tax to pay for the corruption...

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 05:34:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
that one generation of underemployment fucked up integration pretty badly.

As did France losing its faith in its so far successful integrationist policies under the Agnlo-Saxon influence, with the persistent narrative that integration is a failure in France.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 05:49:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Absolutely.

We had the superior model, we still do, but we need full employment now to make it work. Not all the time...but now, certainly.

Personally, I make certain ideological compromises precisely because of this point (and perhaps coloured by  my own experience with unemployment in the '90's...)

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 06:11:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'd tend to disagree. I'd say the peak of immigration was during the late 60's, mostly 70's, at least as for when the workers started to bring their families :

Most immigration into Frace in the 50's was of Spanish and Portuguese origins, I think.

Démographie de la France - Wikipédia

Origine 1962 1968 1975 1982 1990 1999 effectifs 1999
Europe 78,7 76,4 67,2 57,3 50,4 44,9 1 934 144
Espagne 18,0 21,0 15,2 11,7 9,5 7,3 316 232
Italie 31,8 23,9 17,2 14,1 11,6 8,8 378 649
Portugal 2,0 8,8 16,9 15,8 14,4 13,3 571 874
Pologne 9,5 6,7 4,8 3,9 3,4 2,3 98 571
Autres Europe 17,5 16,1 13,1 11,7 11,4 13,2 568 818
Afrique 14,9 19,9 28,0 33,2 35,9 39,3 1 691 562
Algérie 11,6 11,7 14,3 14,8 13,3 13,3 574 208
Maroc 1,1 3,3 6,6 9,1 11,0 12,1 522 504
Tunisie 1,5 3,5 4,7 5,0 5,0 4,7 201 561
Afrique subsaharienne 0,7 1,4 2,4 4,3 6,6 9,1 393 289
Asie 2,4 2,5 3,6 8,0 11,4 12,8 549 994
Turquie 1,4 1,3 1,9 3,0 4,0 4,0 174 160
Ex-Indochine 0,4 0,6 0,7 3,0 3,7 3,7 159 750
Autres Asie 0,6 0,6 1,0 1,9 3,6 5,0 216 084
Amérique et Océanie 3,2 1,1 1,3 1,6 2,3 3,0 130 394
Non déclaré 0,8 0,1 - - - - -
Total 100,0 100,0 100,0 100,0 100,0 100,0 -
Effectif 2 861 280 3 281 060 3 887 460 4 037 036 4 165 952 4 306 094 4 306 094


Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Wed Jan 21st, 2009 at 04:53:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I forgot to describe the first graph : it's the number of babies named Mohamed each year in France. I'm older than most French Mohameds, obviously...

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Wed Jan 21st, 2009 at 04:55:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What happened since 1996?

Most economists teach a theoretical framework that has been shown to be fundamentally useless. -- James K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jan 21st, 2009 at 09:14:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Ali is showing a somewhat similar curve. Considering there has been 26 years since the first peak of mohammeds, I guess this could be the "next generation" of mohammeds ; but then, there also seems to have been a rise of immigration from the Maghreb starting in the late nineties, still rising in 2003, that could also link to it.

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Wed Jan 21st, 2009 at 09:31:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Most of the immigration since then has been workers bringing in their families - usually young, child-bearing age women (and young kids).

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed Jan 21st, 2009 at 03:13:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The first immigrants are not usually French, you know. Not all of their kids are, and they don't start very high in society.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 05:10:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Defensiveness isn't necessary. Obama is the US looking at itself and trying to persuade itself that no, it really doesn't do apartheid. At least, not any more. Or not much, anyway.

In Europe we've had women leaders since the 70s (even if some of them have been insane) and atheist, or at least secular leaders for at least as long. So it's very self-serving to pretend that Obama is a manifestation of the American Dream, and that Europe is behind and supposed to be playing catch-up.

Just because there's a guy with a black face in charge doesn't mean that ethnic apartheid has disappeared, or that economic apartheid and systemic inequality aren't the foundations of US politics to an extent that would be unthinkable in the more progressive parts of Europe.

A small minority of people clawing their way to the top doesn't mean that 'opportunity' is a reality for the majority. That's not going to be become true until the Senate and House include a solid majority of individuals who came from dirt poor backgrounds without money or family connections, and who can run without needing to pretend that they're either mainstream Jews or Christians.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 05:26:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In Europe we've had women leaders since the 70s

Quite so.

(Sorry, couldn't resist.)

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 06:56:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
France has had atheist leaders for about 130 years...

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Wed Jan 21st, 2009 at 04:56:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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